Do Regular Season Conference Championships matter?
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@VailHawk I don’t really remember that aspect, one of the few I don’t remember!
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@nuleafjhawk @bskeet @JayhawkRock78
One comment I will make is that I personally am not a huge fan of the “down” arrow feature. If someone doesn’t like something they will usually let us know about it - the “down” arrow just kind rubs me the wrong way. I’m sure it’s a personal hangup of mine, but now ya know!
I thought similar things when I saw that feature added. I did submit an issue with nodebb about it, you can track it here:
https://github.com/NodeBB/NodeBB/issues/1934
In the meantime, don’t hit the downarrow! Santa knows when you downarrow.
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Cool … a forked thread.
@nuleafjhawk Your comment about being a “good husband and father.” That trumps everything. Actually, better than emperor of the universe.
But I do not see the national championship as icing on the cake. What are we playing for? What is the goal of a program like KU? Not a middling program. Not a shock the world one year and slip into oblivion program — KU.
Look at the nice list of champions posted by @bskeet above? See any just “ok” programs? Maryland is the only one. Elite programs, really, all of them. Elite programs win national titles. Are Elite, or do we win conference titles and proclaim proudly that we are better than KSU, ISU, and the like?
This has to be the goal. Perhaps the discussion in the preseason. The item that casts a shadow over everything else.
But as I’d mentioned, winning the conference helps with seeding, which helps with your chances to win a title. That’s the only value, right now, in my book, for KU.
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@HighEliteMajor Every bracket I’ve filled out since probably 1975 has had KU winning the National Championship. The only year I really didn’t think it would happen was 1988. I am embarrassed when I see teams like UCLA and Kentucky (teams that I feel are mediocre and/or disreputable) with more NCAA Championships than us. There are others on that list as well.
Now, if we were WSU or KSU, teams along those lines and we were hoping/wishing/praying for a NC every year - that would just be stupid. I agree that a NC should be our goal every year. But I don’t think the Conference Championship is anything to be scoffed at.
Wear your T-Shirt proudly bro!!
As a footnote - is it just me, or does Self REALLY switch gears in the post-season? A team that plays, for the most part, flawlessly during the season (most years) and wins 30 or so games should not just vaporize in the tournament as many of our teams have. I don’t mean to stir the pot, but we do not have a legitimate chance of winning a NC on a regular basis if we play so carelessly in late March.
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Conference Championships matter.
If you listen carefully to how Kansas and Coach Bill Self are being referenced these days there is always the preface “10 Consecutive Big 12 Conference Championships.” People don’t still bring up “2008 National Champions.” People want to know of your current success.
10 consecutive conf championships have given us a great deal of prestige today, and as of today, it means more than the 2008 NC. Back in 2008… the NC counted most.
“Conference Champions” is a title we can earn every year (and… we basically do!). “National Champions” happens now and then and you get a certain Cinderella status for the next 12 months before you get dumped back in with the other non-NC teams.
I wouldn’t trade 10 Consecutive Conference Championships for 1 National Championship… but that is just me and I understand and respect those who don’t see it this way.
Imagine going 10 consecutive years without winning your conference? And then let’s throw in a NC in those 10 years. Is that really so valuable? You got hot for 6 games in a 10-year stint. Anyone can win that. I don’t think anyone can win 10 consecutive conference championships. That is a lot of wins, many on enemy turf, and proven over a decade. Sign of a real winner… versus just winning 6 straight at the right time during a 10-year stint. You really need planets to align, be fortunate avoiding injuries… maybe get lucky because your opponents have injuries.
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@nuleafjhawk Yes, that is stirring the pot.
I think the question is whether he builds and develops his teams with March as the ultimate goal?
See, I’ve always said no. He plays balls to the wall to win each game. Period. His strategy is that by winning and playing well in the regular season, you prep for the post season (just my speculative opinion based on observation) . Proof is in the pudding. And the pudding is one national title. The tournament is a different animal than then regular season. Frenetic vs. Monotonous. Reactive vs. Proactive. Chain saw vs. Ax.
In the regular season, it’s a grind. Chopping wood. March is requires a different preparation.
Self is absolutely the best regular season coach in modern times. Self is not near the best post season coach in any timeframe. Both statements can be true.
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“Self is absolutely the best regular season coach in modern times. Self is not near the best post season coach in any timeframe. Both statements can be true.”
Well said… and true!
Which school would you rather be… Kansas or UCONN?
UCONN plays for NCs. Their strategy of playing “guard ball”… everything is built for March.
I’d still rather be Kansas.
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@approxinfinity I wanted to “down arrow” this just out of orneriness (is that a word?), but I don’t want to be the black sheep of the site. Lol.
Besides, I really don’t want Santa mad at me…
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Look how much talk there was about Wichita State unbeaten streak last season. If KU goes on to win a 14th straight title (good chance) and break UCLA’s record, it would likely be the most talked about sports story of the year and one of the greatest accomplishment of all times in all sports. Here is a article that compares KU streak with other sports streaks.
Note that the UCLA streak was accomplished a while back when UCLA and a few other schools dominated the sports and there were very few teams that could play with them; today there is a lot more parity so the accomplishment is greater. Gonzaga has 11 consecutive titles but they are in a minor conference that throughout the years has sent one or two teams to the NCAA tournament and Gonzaga, much like WSU in the Missouri Valley Conference, has very little competition. KU, on the other hand plays in a conference that year in and year out is ranked in the top 3 and routinely sends at least half of its teams to the tournament. Just saying’…
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@drgnslayr Excellent post. I think 10 consecutive Conference Titles in the Big XII is incredible! National Championships are hard to come by. The format is not the same as when UCLA dominated. Coach Bill Self is an excellent coach. I would not trade him for any other coach in basketball…Okay maybe Coach Pop from the Spurs! Anyway, thanks for an excellent post!!
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@KansasComet said:> @drgnslayr Excellent post. @drgnslayr
Agreed! We’ve been over this topic many times but the argument that the 10 conference titles is more talked about than the 2008 NC is interesting.
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@nuleafjhawk said:> @approxinfinity I wanted to “down arrow” this just out of orneriness (is that a word?), but I don’t want to be the black sheep of the site. Lol. Besides, I really don’t want Santa mad at me…
@nuleafjhawk I hid them for you so there won’t be any temptation.
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@nuleafjhawk YES … I do think Self switches gears in the NCAA playoffs. Maybe, not so much in the early games, but very visible in the later games (elite 8). You can see it in him … he gets “tensed up,” and “amped up,” his face gets very ‘red’ and he does “more yelling,” instead of “more coaching.” I think these feelings are transferred to the players and we / KU Players are not quite the same players that we saw earlier in the season / B12 playoffs schedule. Perhaps he LOVES his players too much ??
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@approxinfinity That’s awesome! That will help me (and others) resist the urge to be anonymously rude. (Even more anonymous than we already are - lol)
Remember what mama always said - " Get a haircut AND keep out of my medicine cabinet - - - wait - - - If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all"
Thanks!
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@RedRooster If you’re going to call out Coach Self for nervous coaching, you’d have to include 15 years of Roy’s amazing ability to tense his team up before the biggest games as well. That is 26 years of nervous nellies at the helm.
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And we had Pop sitting on the bench next to Larry Brown in the 80’s!
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Since they removed the downvote arrow, it’s safe to say this
Put KU in any other major conference and we’re not talking about 10 straight conference championships. This league just has not had the consistent elite challenger to KU that we need to toughen us up for March when the games really matter. (now I’m going to run and hide)
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Winning our conference becomes bigger and bigger every year now because we are adding to our streak and closing in on the possibility of becoming the most dominant conference team of all times! It means a lot because the B12 is highly respected, too.
So… every year moving forward we receive a lot of praise for this streak (and we should). It is an accomplishment that deserves conversation with the dominant years at UCLA. Winning a National Championship here and there will not get us in this conversation. UCONN is proof of that. No one is discussing UCONN with Wooden’s UCLA.
But it would offer us some tasty gravy to win another National Championship during this streak. The championships would compliment each other and pronounce our dominance in college basketball to the hype level we deserve, and media is so capable of offering (hype).
The last real hurdle for Self is to be able to dominate the B12 while becoming more competitive in March. Imagine if he is able to accomplish this?
I don’t really believe he is far off from accomplishing this. I think he just has to focus a bit more on bringing in the right guards and executing better from the perimeter. We always have too many TOs, and we don’t create enough TOs with our defense. We always have a decent rebounding margin, but that gets neutralized with our high TOs. If we can win the possession battle at a higher level, put that with our high 2-pt offense, and be just a bit more respectable from 3, who will stop us?
And those high TOs often lead to run outs, which skew our defensive effectiveness. And we all know what they do to momentum!
If we are turning the ball over too much in the regular season, how will we reduce that in March, when the pressure is on and every team we play is jacked up and over-extending for steals, our well-known Achilles heal?
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@wissoxfan83 you better run!!! Jk. We had the toughest preseason last year, so that doesn’t always work. Match ups and injuries.
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@drgnslayr “The championships would compliment each other” Let’s just say we win it this year over my Badgers. How would 08 compliment 15 or vice versa? “Well 08, that certainly was a nice comeback you made.” “Thanks couldn’t have done it without Mario’s super shot, I must say though Selden’s half court alley to Perry at the buzzer sure was memorable.” “We’ve got the two best NCAA endings in history.”
Now if we had championships ‘complement’ each other, well, sorry, the teacher in me just came out!
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Are we trying to convince ourselves that something is true here?
Who talks more about KU because of conference titles than UConn because of national titles? Maybe we do, simply because we’re KU fans.
I’d rather have UConn’s record over the years of their three titles, than our record and conference titles. That’s easy. This is an average conference. No real contenders. It’s why UCLA’s conference streak is a yawner, too.
Really, who ever mentions UCLA’s conference streak other than us now? Or national commentators when covering a KU game? Their national title streak is what matters. It’s what is shown during the tourney … UCLA 13 (or whatever), Kentucky 8 … Kansas 3.
I cannot even fathom that someone would rather have those 10 conference titles than adding to our national title total.
Greatness, my friends, is determined by championships. Not winning National League Central, or the AFC West, or the Pacific Division, but by Super Bowls, by World Series titles, and NBA championships. And by NCAA championships. All real titles are won in tournaments. Does anyone really think of the Buffalo Bills or Minnesota Vikings as “champions”? Or that the Atlanta Braves were the champions of an era?
Let’s raise the bar.
And @wissoxfan83 hit it right on the head … “Put KU in any other major conference and we’re not talking about 10 straight conference championships. This league just has not had the consistent elite challenger to KU that we need to toughen us up for March when the games really matter.”
The truth is the truth. Add just one real basketball school to our conference, and sure, maybe we win 3/4 of those titles. But there is not streak. No one debates that, right?
It’s also why Louisville would have been a nice add to the big 12 …
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I agree that it was a major blunder to not take Louisville when we had the chance. But I don’t agree that the B12 is mediocre. I do think the B12 should show better in March. But your argument is with the RPI and SOS computers that rank the B12 better than you give them credit.
I just don’t agree with the very foundation of your argument. With your argument there is only a couple of really top teams in the country (based on the NC title race). If that is the case, then why even watch college basketball? There are only a couple of legitimate teams with your argument.
Are you really saying that the reputation of Kansas basketball rests on that one Mario Chalmers shot that created the opportunity to win in '08? That makes no sense to me. All those league games on the road mean nothing? The fact that we win more league games than everyone but Texas wins home games says a lot more about the fiber quality of Kansas basketball than Mario Chalmers single shot. It really breaks down to that with your argument. You can argue that our conference should be better, and in that argument you should also mention that we are at a disadvantage in March because we are not properly seasoned from playing in a top conference.
No one in here is discounting the value of National Championships. But many of us will not discount the value of conference titles and the majority of our season games.
I’m glad Self doesn’t take your view. If he did, we’d be a mediocre conference team, a lower seed in March, and I’d hate to have our entire season every year measured only by a March performance. It doesn’t mean I’m saying March isn’t part of the entire picture. Our prestige as a basketball powerhouse would fall strictly on whether a few shots drop in March, instead of recognition for an entire season. I would quit watching Kansas basketball until March.
Would we be a more prestigious basketball powerhouse today had Tar Heel Joe Quigg missed those two FTs in triple OT in 1957, giving us another NC? Or are we more prestigious because the MVP of that FF was none other than Wilt Chamberlain, arguably the best player to ever play the game?
This disagreement isn’t really about Conference Championships versus National Championships… it is about National Championships versus everything else.
This is just my two cents… and I’d be fortunate if I could sell my opinion for two real cents!
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Kansas University basketball’s standing as one of the top programs in the country was one of the biggest reasons the Jayhawks were chosen to represent the United States in the 2015 World University Games in Korea.
“We went through a pretty strong, long process to find the most appropriate team and Kansas was a great fit,” said Craig Jonas, the deputy head of the USA delegation in charge of selecting the representative, during a news conference Tuesday at KU. “When you walk the halls here, you realize what a great tradition Kansas has, and we’re ecstatic about having them there.”
The U.S. International University Sports Federation’s choice of a complete college hoops squad was a change from years past, when American all-star teams were sent to the Games.
Asked about the specific criteria that set KU apart, Jonas pointed to the Jayhawks’ five-year record — No. 1 in all of college basketball — plus preseason rankings, expected returners and last year’s RPI. A smaller, more speculative factor also played a role.
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I agree with HEM for the most part that conference championships aren’t very important. What I suppose I disagree with is that the big one–the NC–is the all or nothing. I am extremely satisfied if KU gets to the FF. At the FF, it’s too often a crapshoot and the best team doesn’t necessarily win.
I also think the conference tournaments have cheapened the regular season championship. Back when UCLA won 13 championships, you either won the conference championship or you went home. These days with 5-7 teams from several conferences going to the NCAA tournament, the regular season doesn’t mean so much.
I wish those conference tournaments would be eliminated.
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I feel strongly about my opinion… but I get just as frustrated as anyone else when we early exit in March. I’m frustrated when we late exit, too. I want to see us make some tweaks that will help us in March. I may not agree exactly with HEM, but in spirit, I expect more from us in March, and in that regard, I am completely on board with HEM!
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Are we trying to convince ourselves that something is true here?
It looks more like you are trying to convince us that something that is true…isn’t
There is no question that KU is overall a better program than UConn, national titles notwithstanding. Conference titles and overall record are indicators of overall and consistent excellence, while national titles are simply the result of a favorable seeding and a 6 game run. Can you honestly say that UConn was the best team last season? I think not, it was ranked 18 and 19 in the two main polls before the tournament.
Likewise, do you honestly think KU was the best team in 1988? No way; if that tournament is replayed 100 times KU probably does not win any of them.
As far as the conference not being strong, that is just not true. Perhaps it seems that way because no one else has won the conference title in 10 years, but year in and year out, the conference has sent at least half of its teams to the tournaments; just last year the Big 12 was ranked number one, had 7 teams (70%) ranked in the top 25 at one time or another and sent 7 teams (70%) to the tournament, that is the largest percentage ever. Yes. other conferences such as the Big East have sent more teams but they also had almost twice as many teams than the Big 12. As a percentage of teams I doubt any conference has sent a greater percentage than the Big 12.
A quick Google search for best college basket ball programs yielded a large number of answers. Here is a sample of only the articles writen in the last year or so:
Here is one from Bleacher report:
And Sports Illustrated…
And the Wall Street…
And College Spun…
And Rant Sports…
And USA Today…
…you get the point. What do all of these articles have in common? None ranks UConn ahead of KU; in fact many don’t rank UConn that high. You can look at older articles and the result is exactly the same. The clear message is that while a national title makes you popular for a short time, it does not represent how good the programs is. KU has won ONE title in 25 years and yet it is consistently ranked in the top 5 and, if you look at the last dozen years or so, in the top 2 or 3, if not as the very top.
If you take away those 10 conference titles and add 1 additional national title, KU would be not be ranked as high as it is now and probably not even top 10.
What is the difference between a good player and a great player? CONSISTENCY. Think about it. There have been lots of players that were unbelievable for a couple of years and then faded, and now nobody remembers them and they are not at the top of any list of great players. Now, think of all the players that are considered great and you will see that what they have in common is that they all performed “consistently well” throughout their careers. The same is true for basketball programs. In the 70s KU was considered a good but not a great program. Only after it started winning consistently starting with Larry Brown and followed by coaches Williams and Self, KU moved to the category of great programs, while winning a national title only twice in those 30 years, one of them ('88) a fluke.
Really, who ever mentions UCLA’s conference streak other than us now? Or national commentators when covering a KU game? Their national title streak is what matters. It’s what is shown during the tourney … UCLA 13 (or whatever), Kentucky 8 … Kansas 3.
Honestly? Are you serious? The UCLA conference and title streak happened over 40 years ago!!! Most college basketball fans were not even born then (and college basketball was not nearly as big as it is today or game broadcasts as available), while the KU conference title streak is current and most true basketball fans are aware of it. Just about every broadcast that I have seen/heard, be that local, regional or national (including the broadcasts during the National Tournament) always mention KU"s conference title streak, and it is always referred as an amazing achievement. Perhaps you don’t see it as such but the rest of the basketball world seem to see it that way.
As I said above, it looks more like you are trying to convince us that something that is true…isn’t.
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“Honestly? Are you serious? The UCLA conference and title streak happened over 40 years ago!!! Most college basketball fans were not even born then…”
So very true. And our culture plays a role in this. We live in a world today where NOW is all that matters (for the most part).
Our consecutive string is something where we pick up plenty of praise every year NOW! I can hardly imagine how much praise we will receive if this continues much longer. I believe we will receive more praise this year than UCONN will receive praise for winning last year’s NC.
Just look at how prestigious Bill Self has become over the past 5 years. It did really help that he got a NC under his belt, but his prestige has only risen these past few years, long after 2008.
The key is not to devalue NCs. Just keep them in perspective as some extremely good fortune. I do believe it is important for schools and coaches to win a NC (or NCs) eventually. If Self had never won, he would not quite be at the level he is today.
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I thought we looked atrocious in the NCAA tournament. We were never the same after Embiid got hurt. Even if he hadn’t been hurt, we were still vulnerable to the slightest amount of pressure. So, we lose to an inferior team this year, on the heels of a monumental collapse against Michigan the year before, and the conference championships simply don’t have the same luster for me. I want a fresh, hungry team playing to win instead of trying to avoid losing. If we can win a conference championship on the way to the Final Four, great. If we end up not winning the conference, but still make it to the Final Four, I’d prefer that over the conference titles.
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I want to win in November, December, January, February, March, and especially April. I can accept it when we don’t. It is easy to sit back and the coach isn’t very good come tournament time. I have been in the stands during the regular season, and I have been in the stands during March Madness. Two completely different experiences for me as a fan. Regular season games are a lot more relaxing, because there is always tomorrow. NCAA Tournament games are completely different. I remember sitting in the stands at the game in St. Louis last year, and thinking the last person I want to be right now is Coach Self. This was 10 minutes before the game started. I was nervous as hell. I can only imagine what he is going through? It is the reason I watch on TV and attend games. It is fun. It is exciting. The thought that we could lose, takes me through all different kinds of emotion. I love it. Leaving an arena after a loss is not fun. I cannot see myself lashing out at a coach or players, because of the result of a game. I am sure Coach Self tries as hard as he can to win every game. As I said, I was in the stands, It is much easier to watch, than to play or coach the game. Glad they didn’t ask me to check in or make a decision about who plays or sits at that moment. I wasn’t ready for the big time, I can admit that. As I have said before, after the game is over, it is easy to “Arm Chair” quarterback and say what should have happened, who should have played and so forth. However, when the live rounds are being fired, I am not so sure that is an easy task. I applaud Coach Self for his recruiting, his coaching, and the class that he brings Kansas. 10 Conference Championships and running, 1 National Championship, and 1 National Runner Up, and 3 Elite 8’s. I would not want to be UConn. I am proud of the Kansas Jayhawks. On the subject of the Big XII being a weak conference. That is just not true. I don’t see any of these so called major conferences lining up to play home and home games against Big XII Teams. It is not easy to go into iSU, KSU, OSU, OU, BU, or UT and get a win. Most teams want to play Big XII teams at neutral sites. The Big XII is an excellent conference.
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@wissoxfan83 Thanks, you just made my day!!!
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What I really like about our forum is the respect members give to each other.
We often choose to disagree, but people stay on point, keep respectful attitudes, and at the end of the day everyone’s dignity stays intact for another day of discussion.
I’ve participated in several online blogs and forums, none compare to this one! It helps balance my opinions about my fellow brothers and sisters and helps keep my outlook on the future positive.
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@drgnslayr We’re not really that nice - we just don’t want Santa mad at us.
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@nuleafjhawk
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