Bullet Points: KU 70, KSU 56 pathetic points
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Remember when Svi told coach he would play better if he kept him at 27 mpg.
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@Gunman. It was interesting misdirection, no? Complete double talk. Any junior high coach would have changed that hiddeous form.
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@Fightsongwriter @Gunman There was a video posted by @JayhawkFanToo on the Sam thread, from before the game. It is clear that they centered the ball, talked to him about the pace of his shot, got fingers on the ball from his left hand vs. a flat hand, and moved that horrible chicken wing in to a good starting position (most important of all). But in the game, his elbow moved back to the wing spot more than in the pregame video, it appeared – both times it moved. If they can get him to just keep that elbow under, keep pounding on that muscle memory, they’re on to something. 60% is reachable.
I did notice him contort a bit on his first free throw last night, trying to give it some body English. They need to remove that. Stay still, confident, and in one spot.
I have no idea why Self would comment about not adjusting form during the season. It’s easy on free throws. Static, and no variables except the slickness of the ball and the environment.
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Blown said:
Remember when Svi told coach he would play better if he kept him at 27 mpg.
PHOF
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Fightsongwriter said:
@Gunman. It was interesting misdirection, no? Complete double talk. Any junior high coach would have changed that hiddeous form.
Bill Self?
Media misdirection?
Why whoever woulda thunk it?
Of course he was.
And he was misdirecting who lost the Okie game too!!!
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“I have no idea why Self would comment about not adjusting form during the season. It’s easy on free throws.“—@HighEliteMajor
To deflect as many questions about Doke away as possible, so the Doke Choke story has the shortest legs surgically possible.
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Some call it coach speak. Bill Self has it mastered. I suggest in our case we could probably call it Billshit
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As I posted before, coach Self is a master tactician, when we are playing checkers he is playing 3-D chess and he is a grand master at it. When we are going somewhere he is already on his way back, we were looking at the the small picture an he was 10 moves ahead looking at the big picture. He conceded the battle (OU) to win the war (conference).
He knew that leaving Doke in the game at OU would not end well but the message he wanted to send was much bigger than losing that one game.
He told Doke…you cannot just concentrate on your game moves, FTs are important and down the road will decide games. He then worked an entire practice with him fixing his FT form and we are already seeing results and hopefully the demise of the poke-a-Doke.
He told the team…we might not have Doke for substantial parts of the game and good shooting might not happen so you need to start playing defense. The result is a motivated team that has now fully embraced defense as an integral part of the game plan and we saw the results against A&M and KSU.
He knew he had OU beaten and that it could beat them again at AFH but it was more important to win at KSU that had been the hottest team in the conference. He telegraphed a strategy to KSU and then unleashed a nasty surprise that took the Wildcats out of the game. KSU had planed on using the poke-a-Doke strategy and facing a man to man defense and the zone, along with great defense and much improved rebounding, prevented them from running their game plan. No question that KU is much better positioned now having lost at OU and won at KSU than the other way around.
…so you see, boys and girls, this is why he makes the big bucks and we don’t.
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@JayHawkFanToo So, your theory is that Self left Doke in to show him that he needs to work on the free throws? That our season might be on the line based on his ability to hit free throws and he d*** well better work on them? Interesting. That’s a theory I can wrap my arms around. The “confidence” thing didn’t hold water for me at all.
There is also that theory floating around that the staff has been negligent on Doke’s FTs, and only after the OU disaster did they take it seriously. And really, that seems to have the most evidence to support it right now. I cannot fathom letting him see the court shooting free throws like that. It seems a pretty easy piece to dictate. And that has been proven by the fact that it has changed quickly. That might challenge the 3-D chess thing.
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“He knew that leaving Doke in the game at OU would not end well but the message he wanted to send was much bigger than losing that one game”
He’s not that smart. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don’t. He doesn’t intentionally lose games in order to send a message.
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@nuleafjhawk It is not the same as intentionally losing. This was risking a loss. Not the desired outcome, but it sent a message that blindly ignoring the FT issue or attempting end of game band aids was not a solution.
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Chess players know all too well that often you need to sacrifice some pieces in order to obtain victory.
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@mayjay So if Self is so omnipotent and perceptive, why in the heck did he not address Doke’s horrific free throw shooting earlier? I mean, anyone could look ahead and see that it could be a late game issue.
The obvious conclusion is that Self and is staff were negligent on this one. They let the guy slide by for over a year, and then when an opponent exposed their negligence, they decided to act.
The only way the alternative theory works is if Udoka wouldn’t work on it, wouldn’t change, and was belligerent when it came to free throw shooting.
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If it were only that simple. Any business person knows that when you have limited resources you have to prioritize and work in areas with the biggest return on investment.
The basketball team is not that different. Any one player that has serious technical deficiencies cannot be taught all of them at once; the staff determined that teaching Doke on-court positional awareness and effective go to scoring and defensive moves had priority and the staff has been extremely successful in these areas but obviously the FT shooting technique had to take a back seat. Now that the primary objective has been largely completed and Doke has an effective game the FT issue has come to the front and is being adressed.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
I’ll just run down the box score.
~Svi still so smokin’ hot you have to wear an asbestos glove to shake his shooting hand. 5-9 from trey is scalding, but 8-18 over all was a little less efficient that is desirable. He got a little wild in the second half–something he hadn’t done for awhile. Right now, those occassional wild hairs are the only real flaws. 22 points, and 7 reels!!! Add a highlights block and a steal and he was ballin’. Svi clocked 39 minutes of PT.
Love it!!
~THE IRON MAN, AKA DG, went 3-10 for a second straight game of low efficiency scoring saved by 8-8 from the line. 16 points and 11 assists is a big night, however, and he put in 40 minutes again.
~Self let Malik joint the Iron Man club tonight with 40 minutes of PT. Why? Because Malik was playing Self Ball par excellence tonight. As a guard, Mr. Offense mixed up with the big boys and made 13 points, but grabbed TEN REBOUNDS. And NOW HEAR THIS: MALIK NEWMAN HAD THREE ASSISTS!!! Add in only 2 pop tarts and Malik was getting into Self’s “coachgasm” zone. If Malik keeps playing this way, Self will play him 40 every game.
Malik is a bad man!
~Vick went 11/4 with two assists. Self dished him 31 minutes. On any other team that would be considered a big minute outing. But on this KU team of Iron Men, Vick was a girlie man with 31 minutes. He played pretty well, but he is not untracked yet.
~Doke essentially got a night off with only 18 minutes. 6 points and 3 boards with no blocks is kind of strange for the man mountain. FT shooting woes continued with 2-5 at the line.’
BUT he made 2 of 2 one time!! That was awesome!
~ Mitch Lightfoot took Dokes time to buy Doke some rest. Mitch was a blank on offense. But he was active on D and had 3 blocks, plus 5 reebs in 20 minutes. And he was a fraking stud going 1-2 on drawing charges. we should add that stat into the box score…
~In one of those weird substitutions seemingly aimed at doubting fans, Self disconnected the cryo-ice tubes from Sam Cunliffe and let him play SIX minutes!!! Sam got a bucket, 2 reebs, and generally did everything Self looks for, except for 1 pop tart.
~Marcus Garrett was quiet and got the quick hook after only 4 minutes.
I was surprised by Garretts no show to be honest.
~De Souza got 2 minutes. I had asked for 4 for the big guys, but Silvio made a TO and that was that. Well, he also had a trey drilled in his face. I’m sure that didn’t help.
~KU shot 45% from both inside the trey stripe and out, which bets the question: why shoot inside?
~KU’s FT% raised to 73, so they did not deserve FT shame.
All in all a satisfying win over an interim head coach.
LOL! Interim coach! you are bonkers!! That’s hilarious!
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@HighEliteMajor I was going to add that maybe the most important message was to HCBS himself. Certainly not omniscient–as I said, risking a loss. Maybe the hope was for the regular way to work, but it didn’t and everybody learned from it. No staff felony
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I just don’t see any way around a minimum staff deficiency on the Udoka ft issue. I’d like to. But I’m sorry. It hasn’t been good from day one. Therefore any moment during that time when used on fts could be used to make that more profrecient. Yes there are other areas to work on. And yes we’ve seen those grow. All on the up and up. No question in mind. But to say that there just wasn’t any priority or that other areas were higher priority or anything of the sort is to suggest that it was simply never seen or thought about in a sense. And how can this be? The % has been awful and the technique from the word go. Which is quite simply negligence in that area. There’s nothing we can do to go back. And frankly I’m sorry for Udoka that it took the debacle in Norman to take steps to correct this. The silver lining is that the idea that there was no way to adapt or improve upon it at this point in the season was clearly “Billshit”. Honestly. More and more the ability to adapt, change, and grow which in my opinion we’ve seen more and more from CS of late is what may well end up making him the absolute greatest HC in KU basketball history before he’s finished here. I submit to you all… We are on the presipus of a very very exciting time for KU basketball. I can’t wait to see how it all goes down.
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So was the OU free throw debacle for Bill or Udoka? Did Bill put Dok out there to teach a lesson? Or did Bill get taught? Either way we fans win as the problem is being addressed now and not after a loss in March.
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cragarhawk said:
Some call it coach speak. Bill Self has it mastered. I suggest in our case we could probably call it Billshit
He has it mastered and seems to really enjoy spreading it around.
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@JayHawkFanToo The reality is that you can teach free throw shooting and do all that you have said. It’s not rocket science. Everything you say can be done at the same time. Resources have zero to do with it in this case. I mean none.
You are venturing into the territory where you are working very hard to defend the staff, when they blew it. It is indefensible. Anyone … I mean anyone with any knowledge of this game … could look at Doke’s free throw shooting and see that it was an outlier of major proportions, so far beyond the norm it was really outrageous, and was a complete disaster. Given how he’d shot free throws in the past, the percentages screamed that as well.
Gross negligence. There is no defense.
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By resources I meant the eagerness of the player to be coached and to assimilate all the instructions when he is so raw and with so much to learn. I thought the second paragraph of my post made that abundantly clear.
I believe that its is more likely that Doke was overwhelmed by all the instructions and he and the staff prioritized where to concentrate rather than to accuse the staff of “gross negligence.”
Having said that, if you want to find fault with Coach Self and/or staff you will do it anyway, nothing new there since you have really being doing it all along with short periods of rest in between criticism.
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What’s wrong with criticism…
For the love of God. What grows and changes for the better without the learning experiences and thus the created motivation to do so.
Step 1 is identify, step 2 is wash it off…
Stubbornness/denial=no growth, no adaptation, no improvisation, and not overcoming… And it’s not even becoming…
Coach Self like all men is a work in progress. This is undeniable. Even he knows it. If not how could anyway explain his adjustments? If not how can you explain the fact that Udokas ft form has already changed. Overnight quite bluntly.
Identify and wash off/fix the problem…
This is growth, and that’s the voyage, and that’s the victory.
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@dylans this is just a theory, but in light of how quickly the form changed after the debacle, what about this?
The coaching staff had been trying to get Doke to change form but he was resisting. Being stubborn and spurning advice to the point where coach said, all right smart guy, lets leave you out there in crunch time and see how you do. Once he tanked they told him, OK if you want to play when it really counts, do what we say and learn the right way to do it. Doke is just 17/18 right? Easy to see how he had to be taught that lesson.
Coach comes to the locker room in Norman after the game and says in front of team, Ok we lost that cuz dok missed 6 in a row. I hate to lose and this is about the team. Tomorrow your form changes.
I could see how it could have played out this way.
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@cragarhawk Some find any criticism of Self as unacceptable, as we know. Any criticism is an attack in their bubble. But you have made a fatal error in trying to explain this as you liken Self to “all men.” Self a mere man? Somehow, someway, no matter what Self does, it is the wisest path. Even when it isn’t. And even when he contradicts himself.
Here, it’s laughable. An obvious example of gross negligence. That’s what troubles some – any challenge to what Bill Self has done is an attack on all things Bill Self, in their little bubble. There is no ability to differentiate between valid criticism and irrational attacks.
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When someone has not learned something, it does not mean that no one tried to teach. We do not know what the staff did or did not try to do about FTs. There are many possibilities.
One is that the staff never noticed what our resident experts have, and that only in the Oklahoma game did someone say, “Hey! Doke can’t shoot free throws! His form sucks. Anyone notice that flying elbow before?” “Huh? No, not me.” “Me neither. Doesn’t matter, though, cuz he will get better. What the hell.”
I think it is more likely that they noticed the problem, but it was a lower priority than a few other things. Like getting Doke to set picks and defend the rim without fouling out (a work in progress), learn up-and-under footwork (coming along nicely), and teaching him a hook shot so his range can go all the way to 5 feet or so. A few minutes of trying to improve FTs enough to get by was likely the only time available. 43% probably seemed adequate so they could get his action lessons to take, and until the OU game, may have seemed worth the risk. Agreeing with @JayHawkFanToo does not happen all that often, but I think his discussion of resource allocation and priorities is right on.
For everyone who thinks that if they tried to teach him he would have shown improvement, I would just point out that it took several technicals before Doke stopped hanging on the rim (including Italy), and he is still getting T’ed up for taunting (Doka Dunk Face). Maybe he is just not a fast learner, or, more likely, in stress he resorts to old habits like all of us do.
One thing I have wondered about is whether his teammates, with whom he shares a dorm with a practice court available 24/7, have been tasked with helping him, or whether they give him in-game advice on the bench.
Why did Shaq and Wilt not make quick turnarounds in FT success? A question for those who thinks that Doke’s poor form is the result of staff not trying to teach him. I think at least one of Shaq’s teams even hired a dedicated FT coach, to no avail. Gross negigence by all the coaches he had? Or poor learning on his part?
Self’s comments have given everyone a feeding frenzy for how stupid he has been. A good coach–takes the blame by making it look like it the problem is just his obtuseness rather than a player who won’t listen or who at least forgets what he has been taught.
Gross negligence. “We all know that is the only answer.” Blah, blah, blah.
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@Fightsongwriter That’s what I’d like to believe, but I’m afraid @HighEliteMajor is closer to the truth. Not much (if any) practice time devoted to Dok’s free throws.
If I recall correctly Bill has said in the past that free throw shooting is on the player to get those reps in after practice. I’m afraid the OU free throwing debacle (0-8 if you count the back end of one and one’s) was just so bad he had to change coarse. But credit the man for adapting once again.
Self was drug kicking and screaming out of the hi-low, hesitant to allow his team to shoot threes, has a methodical press break , and doesn’t practice free throws. Now KU runs a 4-1 beautifully (and it’s still improving). They rains threes, even in transition.The press break against WVU was more aggressive. And Dok’s form is miraculously changing mid-season.
The changes Bill’s made from when he first arrived to now is amazing and I look forward to his continuing evolution as a coach. Watch out! Bill is getting better every day.
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@dylans and how about a good chunk of the KSU game Self running a zone defense?? Liberace pointed out “they don’t play zone”. This new flexiBill does!
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@mayjay One thing about basketball practices, pretty much all coaches do this, is that there is a block of time for just free throw shooting (maybe not every practice, of course). There are gyms with multiple rims, like KU has set up at AFH, guys break off to the their rims, usually with a partner. Many coaches do this at times right after some high exertion activity, so they are shooting a bit fatigued.
In any case, the dynamic at practices are that there are … bing, bing, bing … coaches that interact with players during this time.
Further, when you talk resources, if you have excellent free throw shooters, and guys with good form – but you have this anomaly, the sore thumb – who should coaches direct attention to?
Further, you have a big man starter, a guy that you’d like to draw fouls, a big guy that will get hacked, and you permit that atrocity of form to exist?
Some folks will try to defend anything. This is such an extreme example of complete coaching staff negligence it is unbelievable. But still, folks try hard to defend. It would be easier to just admit it was a staff oversight and move on. But no, there is this need to rationalize the irrational.
Bill Self was well on notice of this. Here’s a link to a story from November of 2016 (first one below) noting poor free throw shooting for the freshmen, which included Udoka. Heck, he shot below 40% last season. He was horrible. And he had multiple months to shoot proper free throws with his left wrist injured. Good grief. Self even said the that the poor free throw shooting “will cost us” – again, in 2016, speaking of Udoka and JJ. Further, in a March, 2016 article, he said this, “You don’t make free throws in the postseason, the chances of you advancing against a comparable team is not very good,” Self said.
So, our big guy, down low, subject to being fouled, a guy you’d like to draw fouls, a guy you need to play, shoots like that?
And magic, in one week all of a sudden his elbow is trying to get to the right spot, pace is being focused upon, and form is suddenly something that can be addressed with our “resources.”
When asked what they could do to improve in November of 2016, he said, "Obviously practice them more … that’s what we need to do.” Uh, no coach, not with Udoka. He needed a form overhaul. Practicing horrible form further ingrains horrible form. We are really debating this?
@dylans is exactly right. We’ve heard Self say that players do free throw shooting reps on their own. That is supported by Self’s statements in the article. Nowhere does he say they are coaching or working with them on form.
http://kuhoops.com/ku-basketball-news/120294748/
http://www.gctelegram.com/58881e29-2e85-5139-a3f6-b9a28f27f01d.html
