KU 2014 summer camp videos
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Corollary to the lineup (since we know that Self is cross-training at the 1-4 positions, this info has leaked out from BigWayne…):
Starting 5: Cliff, Ellis, Oubre, Selden, Mason
Big Boy Pkg 1: Cliff, Traylor, Ellis (moves to wing, Oubre sits), Selden, Mason. [Mickelson, Lucas reserves]
Big & Shoot: Cliff, Ellis, Greene, Selden, Mason (or CF). [Hoiberg wishes he could have 1 big+4 gunners like this. Ellis stretch 4 here]
Big,Bang,Board (killerB’s): Cliff, Traylor, Greene, Oubre, Selden. [Nobody shorter than 6’5, again Mickelson, Lucas reserves]
SmallBall & Shoot: Traylor, Greene, Selden, CF, Mason. [Traylor for dirty work & hustle & garbage. Ellis or Cliff maybe for Traylor]
Thoughts? I like that fact Self is going versatile…going outside of his own box. He has “talked” it with Marcus or Ellis playing 3, but we wont believe him til he does it.
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Maybe this is the year WildBill lets his hair down, er, grows a beard & sets them free: Uses all his playable talent, goes all point-forward with Ellis, Traylor, and Greene, and goes NBA-combo with 6’5 Wayne? And allows early-look 3s, as a way to keep the defense guessing, thus allowing the real dagger to remain the high%, inside-out foundation. But, as HEM said, we should have enough 40% trey shooters, so this means hitting a few early game 3s early in the possession and early in the game, to smokescreen the opponent into thinking the worm has turned inside Billyboy, but actually after a few minutes, we hit them hard inside. Basically keeps them off balance for a whole half, and we can adjust 2nd half to what has worked. Meanwhile the opponent isnt sure what to gameplan as we hit em with both. And I like HEM’s idea of rapid/whoever inbounds to push the pace. Using a deep bench is pointless unless all those fresh legs make the opponent pay.
Well this is my Sunday nite quarterbacking of my KU Jayhawks…we’ll see what Selfmeister has up his sleeve for real, and what is all a feint with this summer’s public comments-thru-Wayne-&-Greene…
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@ralster Here’s the lineup I really like … Mason, Selden, Oubre, Greene, and the fastest big – Alexander, Traylor, or Ellis. Play zone. 1-3-1. Selden on the baseline. Can’t do it all the time, but 1/4 of the time, or 8 minutes per game? And play fast. Real fast. Like ball out of hoop and go. Like gun three’s. Like push, push; trap, trap; press, press. Attack.
But it’s only a dream.
From the lineup discussions, it appears Svee and Graham may not be the “instant” or “immediate” impact that has been projected.
Defense may change this whole discussion. If Graham is a substantially better defender than CF, I could see CF seeing the bench.
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@HighEliteMajor Yeah, Svee is such an unknown, but then he isnt really any smaller than Oubre. 6’7 and 190ish? But plays against true men, so we’ll see how Russian men translate against Div.1 18-23yr olds. I left off Graham, as I know very little, other than a KU player’s assessment that he can play D. If he has speed with the ball as a PG, then there is the natural backup to Mason, not CF. Gotta keep those athletic feet moving in positions 2-5, hence the speed necessary at the PG spot.
Of course the flip-side to all this change-o-pace, change-o-D, and change-o-Offense philosophy means Self isnt Self anymore, or is he? If he does allow it, what’s he doing with his own legacy? Does this mean he, too, would be on a learning curve regarding playcalls and substitution patterns? Does this mean his win% will suffer? Could the cumulative effect of observing penetrating guards from Sherron to Tyshawn, along with upstart Freddy Hoiberg giving Self a real scare a couple of times, as well as being a participant in this heavyweight recruiting + hardwood rivalry with Calipari/Kentucky caused Self to break his own mold? WWBSD? (WhatWillBillSelfDo)
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@ralster and Hem love the insights and conversation you guys are having. If you would allow me to jump in I would be honored. If not just tell me to get lost and I just keep reading. LOL
I don’t know why but I see Graham winning the point guard position. I know he’s just a freshman but I got this feeling the kid can play. Mason would be the logical choice but man he doesn’t seem to shoot the ball with any regularity. CF would also be a good choice, but I see him more as a T Reed. Somebody that will give his all and can could get on a roll from the outside.
Inside I couldn’t agree more on Traylor. If he’s not starting he will be one of the first of the bench. Crazy thing the kid is really just learning the game. Like Embiid he hasn’t really been playing the game very long. I love the upside on this kid. Hunter is starting to sour my stomach a little. I know no real games have been played yet, however for some reason I just expected more. Hope I’m wrong. I’m not sure the kid makes it off the bench in the second wave of big men.
To me the ace in the hole is Svee. I’m not sure what to think yet? The kid can post up and hit the turnaround jump shot and can pull up from 3 land. However can he be physical enough to get some minutes. If he can then I think this upcoming KU team is solid. They have depth and the ability to shoot the three as Hem said. Just my two cents.
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@HighEliteMajor I like an occasional 1-3-1. I’d have oubre(wingspan guy) on top, Selden in middle, wings Mason and Greene, Traylor on bottom. Great running fast break and pressing group!
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@DoubleDD in these scrimmages it’s really hard to see what our big men can do. It’s mostly running the floor. Can’t wait to see the new guys and our improved experienced guys!
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@DoubleDD I think its very cool to see what other fellow Hawks (like yourself) are thinking after seeing a kid play, as most of us avid Jayhawk watchers have been judging incoming KU players for some time. I’d love to see Graham shine–I’ve even heard the positive spin that he is a cross between Russell Robinson and Mario Chalmers…I mean, what could be better than that, and he is able to play D. A lot of my angle in judging a kid comes from seeing advanced footwork, whether its on the offensive end, or defensively. And also from a player’s perspective, since I still play this game and am always judging and trying to breakdown a new opponents game–what Mason does, or what Russell Robinson did is very, very basic, innate, and guttural-instinct stuff to me. That competetive “fire” and “it” factor that Self talks about, or the concept of “swagger” or “PTPer” (its all the same thing). Some guys have it, some just dont, as they are more dutiful followers. For example, a guy like Brady may be a superstar in a pickup game, and a leading scorer in highschool…but on a college team, he is a role player. Now look at a 10ppg high school player like Tyshawn, who actually greatly surpassed anything he did in high school by what he became in college (unguardable penetrator, 4yr starter, 2nd leading scorer in 2012RunnerUp season). But he likely had a similar highschool career to Brady. Same 6’3 size. But look at the mentality difference. You could even judge the mentality difference between Tyshawn and EJ. Both NBA sized guards, 1 has the mindset, 1 mostly does not.
So I just dont know what CF has yet. But I’ve seen enough of Mason to know. Same with Selden. Need to see some college dominance out of Perry Ellis, and I think he knows it too.
Mason scored 52pts in a high-stakes high school game, and he was solid against Duke, so the kid has some swagger without any doubt. Bill Self cannot stop his tendency to recruit scorers, then teach them all the other parts of the System. Mason would have had about 6 more assists if Ellis and Traylor had converted all those paint misses they had vs. Stanford. Mason showed me improvement. Frankamp showed me exactly 1 game where he hit 3 treys, and Connor’s team lost that game. I agree that Frankamp projects in the b-list combo guard category, like Brady and Reed. Self wont allow him to be our Heslip or Forte or Keiton Page, simply because Self likes his athletic, tough physical guys also. Wayne Selden and Brannen Greene are more prototypical Div.1 players. Especially for a blueblood. People liked to think Reed or Brady were “KU’s JJReddick”. Well, neither was close to Reddick, who was 6’4, and more importantly, was a 1st team, all-ACC shooter, and had a long career with Orlando Magic, and is still in the NBA. I just dont see that for Frankamp. He wont make it on size alone: too easy to guard with NBA length. Now, the kid knows how to score, but its a circular problem: Bill thinks other bigger guys offer more of a complete game, so Conner never really gets a chance to shine.
And in this discussion, I’ve left out that what may move a KU kid on the roster (either up or down) is his ability to defend, as that has got to be a SORE subject with Self currentlly…
Regarding Svee: Well, it remains to be seen. We saw a #1 ranked recruit (Wiggins), #1 overall NBA pick be inconsistent at times offensively, couldnt save his team from defeat in early rounds, just as another top5 NBA pick (Parker) couldnt save his team Duke. And Wiggins was 18 until March, when he turned 19. And Svee is 16? Holy schmokes! I would be shocked if a blueblood was down to pinning its hopes on a 16 or 17yr old kid. I’ll let Svee show us what he can do. I hope, like you, that he is a great addition to our team.
Should be an entertaining, and more consistent year, as we now have a core of experienced AND high-talent guys. And guys with fire and swagger, which we needed.
RCJH
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@ralster you are so warping my mind. I totally get what your saying about the it factor. The kid that doesn’t care about being good enough he just does it. My thing is to me EJ had it, he just played out of position. He was no point guard. To often I think as fans we say combo guard and think every thing is good. However you know as well as I do a true point guard makes a world of difference. If UK doesn’t have J. Wall they don’t win that championship. That is why I think this Graham kid is going to be the answer. He just seems to have that it factor for me. I love Mason and CF but Mason is like a missile when fired you don’t know where the kid is going to land. I think we both agree on CF? Has a chance to be a great college player and then off to the Euro league.
As far as Svee I just don’t know? He’s so young, but has been playing the man’s game in Europe. I just don’t know. To me if he can play the physical style of ball we play here in the US then I think he’s the wow factor that’s puts us over the top. If not I still think we are solid but a NCAA championship is going to be pretty hard without some breaks.
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I’m very late on this thread, but after reading through some of the comments, was able to muster some thoughts. It was difficult to really observe in these videos who’s who or who did what. But I had a few general comments that are either slightly different or along the same thought processes as others.
I’m still concerned at the pg. I think Mason is your starting pg based on these vids because he will be full throttle come game time, but too early.
CF is the same. I just don’t see any zip or crispness to his feet and this alarms me. He’s going to be what many of us have pretty much agreed upon and that is strictly an assassin when needed. His foot work is still slow and just don’t see him doing much on D. He got lost many times which could be good and bad. I agreed last year and I’ll agree again, CF is looking even more like a transfer. I really hate to say that too. I hope to be wrong.
I couldn’t see Graham at all this vid. I couldn’t make out many of the alum either.
I think all the sophs looked comfortable, but as one pointed out, a casual game of pick up in front of a camp crowd is different than the big stage. Green is the total package and always has been in my book. I could see him playing some pg at times if he catches the pace. Oubre looked like a typical frosh at times.
I really wish Svee was here. I just don’t see him getting many minutes under his current circumstances and if Self is smart, he’ll be real strategic with that kid. Something tells me he’s going to be special over the next 2-3 years at KU. I’ve read too he’s in no hurry to even look at the NBA. So Self may have a rough diamond waiting to be polished and displayed.
I think Cliff has a high ceiling, but again, if Self can temper and strategically develop him, he’s going to be huge at KU.
Now the bigs…Ellis is the highlight of this team. His camp directors are glowing about his play. I think Ellis’ development is phenomenal and a testament to young student-athletes that if they stay, they can actually get better, but they have to work in the classroom too. This is why Ellis didn’t go to UK.
Lucas is and has always been my big sleeper. I’m anxious to see if he can develop into that “protector” we need. I’m a bit bigger on him than Hunter. I thought Hunter looked fluid and moves well for a big. He showed some moves in the lane too. I would like to see him showcase his rim protection, which is what he’s known for coming from Ark. My money is on Lucas because of experience and better rim presence than Hunter.
Selden will be fine. But if I had to provide an ‘early’ starting lineup that will obviously change over time, it would be as follows:
Mason
Selden
Green - It will depend on Oubre’s development.
Ellis
Lucas
Overall, they looked good and have a lot of promise. I also loved Buddy Hield’s comments of OU winning the B12 in basketball. I think he was referring to the gridiron, perhaps? I hope KU takes this comment seriously.
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I have something (albeit random) to confess…
I can’t stand Joel Embiid…
There. I said it.
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It took me a while to digest what Self said recently about not running a point guard, and that all the guards had to be capable of bringing up the ball.
At first, my old school dog inside of me went negative and I was thinking, “oh, oh… we are actually going to be WORSE than the past years on the perimeter.”
But after some thought, I feel like I have deciphered CS and what he meant.
He is doing something he should have done a long long time ago.
Deciphered Self message: “if you are a perimeter player and you want to come to Kansas, you better be able to handle the ball!”
It should have been the rule years ago. Our biggest Achilles’ heel for years has been our inability to take care of the rock on the perimeter. We’ve been swimming upstream for years… trying to be more efficient on offense and defense to make up for the loss in possessions.
We may not have the next Derrick Rose at PG this coming year… but we shouldn’t need one. We need to always have 3 guys out there on the perimeter who can dribble/pass out of trouble, as well as dribble/pass to score.
With the proliferation of perimeter players this coming year, we should start to dent away at our previous rep of not getting the job done on the perimeter. Gone will be the teams like Villanova who thinks they’ll win by putting on high ball pressure. Those teams we will eat like candy, because with 3 capable perimeter players they will chew right through the high pressure, leaving nothing but easy scoring in the post.
The next big sell Self needs to make regards perimeter defense. We’ve been soft out there the last few years and that trend needs to turn around. We got spoiled having a shot blocker in the post to clean up all the bad guard defense, but that isn’t the way to play well. The way to play well is to have guards that know how to keep their man in front of them and out of the paint. No perimeter shot should go up uncontested. And we should start getting our share of steals from the perimeter. This needs to become a top priority… perimeter defense. We have plenty of athleticism and bodies to run outside. There is no reason why perimeter defense should be another Achilles’ heel.
So if we can shore up the perimeter, we can start counting on players like Cliff and Perry winning the paint and giving us the edge on about anyone we face.
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@MoonwalkMafia explanation?
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Frankamp is a one dimensional version of Tyrel Reed. Both can be very good college players but the pro potential is extremely limited or not an option. Frankamp is living his lifelong dream of being a Jayhawk and I don’t believe he would leave KU just to get additional playing time, given that even extended playing time would not change the likely final outcome. Like Tyrel before him, even if he does not become a starter, he will get additional playing time in later years as the experienced upper-classman.
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So many possibilities; it reminds me of last year when we went through the same excercise with a team full of potential.Look how it turned out.
I will have to see the players under actual game conditions to judge their progress…or lack thereof. I can’t really draw any concussion from what I saw on the scrimmage videos.
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@JayHawkFanToo you got that right! Knowing we do have exciting possibilities makes it pretty sweet! I’m probably more worried about the 5 spot, at this point.
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@JayHawkFanToo I would contend that Tyrel is ‘better’ than CF. I think they are both above average shooters. In fact, I’d give Tyrel the edge at this point. However, we enjoyed Tyrel for 3 yrs? He didn’t even sniff the court his freshman year. Not sure if he sniffed the court much his soph season. I really didn’t see much of him until his junior and senior years.
My point between the two is a solemn fact of D1 bball. If Tyrel is taller, better, and down right more athletic than CF, and he’s simply relegated to the Euro-league; what’s that say for CF? Tyrel is 6-3, 6-4 in shoes? CF is a good 5’11 or maybe 6-0 in shoes? Tyrel is far more athletic than CF and was CLUTCH in some big games. I’d take Tyrel any day of the week. But to CF’s defense, I’ll give him the ‘benefit of the doubt.’
I’m really beginning to interpret some things here from HCBS about CF. I think like many of us, he’s perhaps forcing a square peg, round hole scenario with CF. We all want CF to perform at D1 close to the peformance of his high school games. I just don’t see it happening. Self will have to create some special plays for CF. The Stanford game was CF’s defining moment, but just don’t think it will be duplicated much in coming games. If you noticed CF needed some really strong and aggressive screens to create his shots. He’ll have to get more consistent with open shots, or knock them down. I was impressed with his shooting, but if you noticed, he didn’t have much of a defensive challenge. I’d like to see someone get in his jockstrap and lock him down. I want to see what CF can do if a taller 6-3 or 6-4, quick defender can give his shot a challenge.
Has anyone seen the movie, Trouble with the Curve? Remember the great homerun hitter? Remember what happened when he was confronted with the curve? Remember what he did even when he was told the curve was coming? I kinda see CF’s shot like that hitter’s. I just wonder what he can do when he’s really challenged, with a longer, quick, athletic defender. You might think most players would struggle. Maybe, but I think CF will struggle even more under the above circumstances.
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@Crimsonorblue22 It will be fine. I’m really confident in our 5s. We’re so spoiled with the Aldrich’s, Withey’s, and the Embiids. But, we’ve got some rim presence with Lucas and likely Hunter.
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@truehawk93 ok
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@Crimsonorblue22 LOL…don’t take my word for it. I even think with some time, Big Cliff will even protect the rim. But his motor is so much like TRob’s. I see Alex going through some of the same learning as TRob. I think Alex may be a 3 yr project, like TRob.
PS. I hope you get that explanation too. I’m as curious too.
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@JayHawkFanToo On CF, you will acknowledge a big difference, right? CF was a top 50 player (#34). Reed was outside the top 100 (#109).
That just sets expectations.
But I do like your comparison. Though CF was ranked much higher, I wonder if the ceiling is the difference. I don’t know.
I would not bank on CF simply being satisfied with bench time at KU, or waiting for his senior season. The #34 player has the expectation to make a living playing basketball. Maybe not NBA, but certainly a career.
On the camp videos, though, you can see certain things. Nothing definitive. Certainly little correlation to real game situations. But there are nuggets that can provide some good intel. Like Selden shooting more in front of his head (unless I’m hallucinating).
@truehawk93 - Tyrel “better” than CF? Tyrel didn’t play as a freshman. CF played. No way to compare now. I am intrigued by your critique of his shot. But don’t you think long, athletic defenders jack everyone up? He’s small. Small dudes are at a disadvantage. Smaller quarterback’s have to find passing lanes. I didn’t note that CF experienced any real trouble finding open shots last season. But certainly worth following.
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@truehawk93 Thinking Cliff may be a “3 yr project, like TRob” is perhaps more wishful thinking than objective analysis.
Let’s just start with their high school rankings. Cliff #3, TRob early 30s. No rankings aren’t definitive, but they are a useful guide. The difference between their rankings tells me Cliff is more out-of-the-box ready than TRob was. We saw in TRob’s game he wasn’t ready his first year, and still had jitters his sophomore year. He played too fast. Fouled too much. Could be we see the same from Alexander, but the rankings tell me he’ll have an easier job staying on the court.
Secondly, TRob developed exponentially once he became a starter. He saw only scraps of minutes his freshman year as the 4th big behind Cole & the Morris Twins, then served as the primary back-up his sophomore year but wasn’t playing starter level minutes. Playing time speeds up development. By all accounts, Alexander is projected to be the starter from day 1. He should learn and develop faster.
However, there is reason to think we could meet in the middle, and possibly have hope for two years of Alexander. First, he doesn’t seem to have great moves or the face-up jumper. Maybe he has them and just hasn’t shown them (his highlight tapes are 95% dunks & blocks), or maybe he develops them quickly, but if not a second year might be in order. Also, while the 3 future pros playing in front of TRob certainly kept him off the court for a time, they were also there to bang against him everyday in practice. Going against tough competition in practice can speed development too (although not as much as game time minutes, in my opinion). Cliff doesn’t exactly have the same peers that TRob did (although there are certainly things he can take from Ellis’s game, and perhaps Jamari’s as well).
A wild card in all this may be the NBA potentially raising the draft age. If done soon, that could keep him in Lawrence a second year whether he wants to or not. It could increase his chances of going after that second year, as players from the class of '15 (which is allegedly “loaded”, although it seems we hear that every couple of years) would not be eligible, therefore increasing his chances of being taken in the lottery/with a higher pick.
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@truehawk93 You thought you’d seen his coming out party, when in reality, all you saw was the prelude. This is a world class assassin cleverly disguised as a short white boy. You don’t measure that look in his eye in that Stanford game by his height - you measure by his heart.
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Rankings are like GPA, it helps you get your first job and after that nobody really cares what it was, they just want to do how you did in your previous job. Rankings might get you offers from better programs but after the fist year of actual play, nobody (except board theoreticians, i.e you and I) really cares about it. Frankamp was rated high based on his prolific scoring more than anything else, Reed was Kansas Mr. Basketball and averaged almost 27 PPG in his senior year and was pursued by other big programs including UNC, so there was not really a big difference between then out of high school either.
This is what Tyrel wrote in his book:
“ Playing time was a big part of it, too. Coach Self was pretty honest with me. He said they had a deep team with a lot of established guys at that point, and if I was going to play, I was going to have to beat out those guys, but that he thought later in my career I could be a big part of the rotation. That didn’t bother me. I trusted him, and I believed I was good enough to contribute anywhere in the country if I worked at it.”
Amazing how it turned out just like that. I will guess that Frankamp got a very similar speech
Tyrel averaged 6.3 MPG and 2.0 PPG (51.4% and 41.8% from 3) where Conner averaged 8.3 MPG and 2.5 PPG (34.4% and 31.3% from e). Not much of a difference really although Tyrel had better shooting percentage. Keep in mind that in Tyrel’s freshman year KU also had Chalmers, RussRob, Collins, Rush, Stewart, Tehan, Case right of the top pf my head playing guard so it is surprising that he even played that many minutes; by his Sophomore year he averaged over 20 MPG, Do you think Frankamp will average 20 MPG next season? I don’t unless his 3-gun gets considerably better.
At this point Frankamp has not shown the shooting form that got him ranked high, but I am hopeful that he will get better. Because of size and versatility I give Tyrel the edge, although we really have not really seen what Frankamp can do.
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The problem with Alexander is that everything that made him dominant in high school will only translate against mid majors, not majors. Cliff is going to have the same problem that The Designer has, only he lacks as long a menu of offensive skills as The Designer showed up with. The Designer could play rough and tumble in high school, just like Alexander could. But in D1, Alexander, like The Designer, is going to be looking up at a lot of guys and shoving a lot of guys that outweigh him. Looking up while outweighed makes dominating difficult. I’m not sure he’s a 3 year project as TRob was, but I don’t see how he can play more than 15-20 mpg this season, unless he’s just got one heckuva lot of game that doesn’t show up on the feeds.
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@icthawkfan316 testing to see if this posts
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@Wishawk whats up with this thread? hm
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test
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