Bill Self Says No To Point Guards?
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@ralster can you imagine if Smart picked us over Ford? I bet he wishes he could do it over! He sure wouldn’t be famous for flopping. And maybe forte joins him. Is forte still there? Gotta say I will miss heslip and smart. The osu game at AFH was an exciting one!
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@Crimsonorblue22 No maybe about it - Smart and Forte were a package deal, no matter where they went. I think they both would have looked good in Crimson and Blue. And Smart most likely wouldn’t have acted the fool under Coach Self.
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@nuleafjhawk smart picked the coach he could control! Pretty sure the Fortes wanted KU. Interesting to see what happens to osu. Need them to be great!
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To the best of my recollection, KU did not offer to Forte and that doomed any chance of getting Smart. I have to admit that OSU has had really good luck of late with who I call the smurfs on steroids, Keiton Page first and then Phil Forte.
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@JayHawkFanToo I heard that too. Those 2 smurfs, killed us! Heslip did too.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Agree to disagree. I think Wayne will be a huge part of the offense including bringing up the ball on occasion when Mason or CF don’t. This is Wayne’s team.
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@JayHawkFanToo Actually, Forte was offered by KU. I’m not saying this in any kind of name-dropping way, just as a matter of fact - I’ve known the Fortes for 25 years. When " little Phil " was a sophomore in High School, " big Phil (an ex KU football player, btw) told me that his son was getting some offers from not so well known colleges. Then when he was a junior, people were starting to take notice. By the time he was a senior, he was in the hunt for some pretty good basketball schools. Big Phil told me that he was offered by KU, but after consideration decided not to go there. He LOVES KU, said his room is like a shrine to all things KU, but he didn’t have enough confidence in himself and didn’t think he could make a contribution at KU. He wanted to go somewhere where he could get some significant playing time. Big Phil told me - he’s good, but he ain’t KU good.
Good call, Big Phil…
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@nuleafjhawk good story! He sure doesn’t mind shooting lights out on us!! Wonder what big Phil thinks about lil Ford??
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@Crimsonorblue22 No joke! It makes me sick that he didn’t come here - I guess he got over his lack of confidence!
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Alas, KU good varies from year to year, and he almost certainly WOULD have been KU GOOD-enough to start 1 or 2 seasons at KU the way things broke.
Regardless, he got some good times at OSU.
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@jaybate 1.0 remember everyone plays their best against us too!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Agreed that Smart would have been awesome under Self. But he might not have had the stats as a frosh to go pro (like Selden), so he would have had another year at KU. Its all karma, maybe about Smart. I really hope he wisens up quick, he could be a good pro.
Maybe we finally got our own short mad3bomber in Frankamp: Reports from the camp games this week say he looks noticeably thicker in the upper body. Hmm. I really do hope he can be a Heslip/Page/Forte type of 3gunner.
Self likes his athletic guards. Fact: Self has NEVER recruited a KU guard than couldnt dunk the ball. I’ve seen Mason, Sherron, Naadir, Frankamp…all dunk the ball. Can Forte dunk? Maybe Phil Forte, Sr’s impression of Bill Self is that Self favors taller guards, who also are athletic…and didnt think his son was athletic enough. He sure could shoot it, though.
Note to all: other than a returning LeBryan Nash, OkieState will be REALLY thin. Unknowns. Newbies. Greenies. ChokiePokies. They will be in a real dogfight with TCU and TxTech, and will likely lose to both of those teams, just watch. Those teams are on the rise, OkieState is in decline, starting this last season…which of course points the finger down on the head coach. Travis Ford’s final season at ChokieState, as all his Oklahoma State Cowboys will be packin’ are .22shorts. So you can say they’ll send Ford out-with-a-“pop”…
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@ralster lol - i don’t know if Forte can dunk or not, but he can dunk it pretty well from 19-30 feet !
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@ralster I read somewhere recently that Travis Ford has a no buyout clause in his contract, meaning that should Okie St. decide to terminate his contract they would have to pay ALL of the remaining salary. His contract runs through the '18-'19 season and has $13.825 million remaining on it. After this year there will be $11.2 million remaining.
The point of this is I’m not sure how monumentally bad he’ll have to be for the Okie St. board of regents to swallow that much salary, and then on top of that pay a new coach. I know that T. Boone Pickens can probably scrape together that much scratch digging through his couch cushions, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they wait until he’s closer to the end of that contract before finally biting the bullet and getting rid of Ford.
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@icthawkfan316 I just can’t see any promise for Ford after last years mess.
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@Crimsonorblue22 By that logic he should be gone now though, right?
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@icthawkfan316 yes, what do you think?
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@Crimsonorblue22 My thought is that yes, performance wise he should be gone now. But he’s not, so the question then is why?
Does he have a good team returning? No. Smart & Markel Brown are gone. They’ll return Forte, Nash, & Cobbins should be back from injury. No one else noteworthy.
Does he have a good recruiting class coming in? It’s pretty decent. ESPN ranks it at 38th. The class is highlighted by a couple of 4 star forwards - small forward Joe Burton & power forward Mitchell Solomon. They also have a 7 foot JuCo player named Anthony Allen who led all JuCo players in blocked shots this past year. Allen was being recruited by some other reputable schools (saw Louisville on one list) so he’s probably decent. (note: rivals shows him as a commitment but not having signed a LOI). And they have Jeff Newberry who was ranked in the top 10 JuCo players by many services.
So perhaps that’s the reason. A combination of giving him one more chance while at the same time not wanting to lose any of these new recruits.
My guess is though, it’s more about the money than anything. If he didn’t have such a ridiculous contract, I think he’d already be gone. And it is because of this that I think he might be able to stink/stick it out a little while longer than just this upcoming season.
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According to Barry Tramel there are 5 years left in the contract and more like $11M, which is still a lot of money. If he is fired, he would be paid his salary yearly minus whatever he makes in any new job he takes. It is possible that they could buy him out for a smaller lump sum payment.
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@JayHawkFanToo Here’s the link I found his contract info on:
[http://www.cowboysrideforfree.com/2014/4/3/5546118/travis-ford-fired](link url)
It looks like the difference between our figures is the 2 million from the retirement column ($400k/year x 5 years). Not sure if he gets that if he’s fired or not.
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I don’t have any idea what the numbers were, I was simply citing Tramel. I would guess that if he is no longer working for OSU he would not get the retirement portion, but then I really have no clue if this is correct.
I can see where if Ford has another well paying job lined up he would opt for a smaller lump sum that would result in higher overall payout to him.
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Unless Oubre is a 40% trifectate out of the blocks, the best thing that could happen to Oubre is for Greene to start and play 20 mpg and for Oubre to backup and play 20 mpg backup his first season, then carry the team on his back his second season, as appears set to happen with Selden. Frankly, Selden would have been better off had the same situation been possible for him last season. Playing injured really prevented him from developing his game at all last season. It just taught him how to play without a wheel, which is not the same thing as becoming a proficient dribbler, or proficient defender and shooter. This starting as a freshman without a full D1 tool kit is cruel and actually retards skill development, even though it gets them used to D1 speeds. An apprenticeship season lets them do both: get used to D1 speeds and violence, and lets them develop their skills.
Without a 40% trey, Oubre will find himself in exactly the same position Wiggins was in, only probably with a bit less athleticism. He can either get a bunch of 3 point plays off drives on nights when he is given 15-20 FGAs, or mostly disappear, when he has to play within the scheme. Wiggins was a tremendous player and talent, but UNLESS he was GIVEN the 15-20 FGAs defenders just sagged, guarded his strong hand, denied him strong side, made clear to him that they were going to threaten his health for the draft at the rim, and dared him to shoot treys. It wasn’t fair to Wiggins to expect him to carry the team when he couldn’t even dribble with one of his hands and had a suspect trey. Wiggins frankly made the best of it, despite his tendency to softness. But it wasn’t fair to Wiggins, whether or not his advisors wanted it that way, or Self did. He just flat was not up to the challenge of dominating within the scheme of play, especially once Embiid was gone, and if you recall, that was actually a decently talented array of players he had around him even after Embiid went out. He did his best a couple of games at doing all the scoring and could do it, but as he did, he could not make the rest of the teammates one teeny bit better with dishes and they just stood around. The same, only worse, will occur with Oubre, if Self were to put the team on is back first thing.
Fortunately, the horse with the saddle pad (and sores) this year is going to be second year, leaned up, hard bodied, experienced, and hopefully hop-restored Wayne Selden.–NOT Oubre!
Lucky us.
And lucky Oubre! No doubt he is going to be a fine player, maybe a great one, but everyone benefits by an apprenticeship, even the great ones. Persons often forget that MJ got to start out being a third option behind Worthy and Perkins. And Danny Manning got to learn the ropes his first season on that awesome team of senior sharp shooters.
Really, regardless of what BS these OADs are being fed about money, and I am always on the side of making money when it is there to be made, at least half of them really can’t play the game as freshman. When you are a super freak at your position that will be a super freak in the L, too, then, fine, jump for the bones. This is why I can see Embiid going even though his game isn’t anywhere near ready. He is a super freak physically who they will work to develop. But if you’re a guy like Selby, or Oubre, or Wiggins, with big holes in your game, and when you get to the L you are going to be an entirely fungible commodity unless your game has no holes, and you can gun the trey enough to create space against men in no boys allowed, then a seasoning year, followed by a Top three scoring option year ought to be the new normal.
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@jaybate It does make the most sense for Oubre to come off the bench. But does he do that for two seasons? Greene isn’t turning pro after next season.
Anyway, let’s assume your scenario – realistic starters are Mason, Selden, Greene, Ellis, Alexander.
Realistic bench rotation guys are CF or Graham, with Oubre, Traylor, Mickelson. And then Graham/CF or Svee getting 5th perimeter man minutes.
Self’s recent comments about the three ball handler thing would challenge Oubre’s inclusion over Graham or Svee.
But I expect Oubre and Greene, regardless of Self’s three ball handler discusion, to be two of the four big minutes perimeter guys. If we need more ball handling in a game, the CF, Graham, or Svee gets the nod.
For sure, two perimeter guys are not going to get minutes.
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@HighEliteMajor I think Coach is trying to backtrack from his comments following the Devonte signing, and I don’t believe him. I think he is trying to placate Mason and CF. Dangle some carrots out there - keep folks motivated.
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@HighEliteMajor Again not enough minutes for too many PTPers. It may be that CF or Frank get a shirt, IMO more likely CF.
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@globaljaybird / @KUSTEVE - Is it not completely inevitable that either CF, Graham, or Mason transfer? One of them. There seems to be no way they all can co-exist for their careers here. So the competition ensues.
I had never once heard a CF transfer rumor. Then, last week, Jesse Newell did an article on CF and wrote this:
Though offseason rumors floated around that Frankamp may seek a transfer from KU, the Wichita native remains on the Jayhawks’ roster and is focused on looking ahead. “I ended the season pretty well, and I knew that would give me some momentum going into this next year,” Frankamp said. “KU’s where I always wanted to be, so I figured that I could make it work here if I work as hard as I can, and then I’ll just try my best to get out there as much as I can.”
That was certainly news to me. The battle for scholarships and PT continues …
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@globaljaybird / @KUSTEVE - Is it not completely inevitable that either CF, Graham, or Mason transfer? One of them. There seems to be no way they all can co-exist for their careers here. So the competition ensues.
The transfer rumor was a whole lot of nothing. One of CF’s friends made a public comment that he’d fit better in Creighton’s system and the rumor mill quickly escalated it to ‘CF is transferring to Creighton’. That’s nothing worth raising your blood-pressure over.
As for an inevitable transfer, not necessarily. If all three can make it through the season (maybe one can ride the redshirt) and Selden and Oubre depart as expected, we’ll have the perfect mix of back-court players: 2 pgs, a 2/1combo, and two 2/3 combos. They could all coexist as long as we don’t sign any back-court players that are going to demand instant minutes.
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@icthawkfan316 Thanks for the info on OklaState’s recruiting! I had started to do a search a couple of days ago, but got busy at work, so unable. Strong work!
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@ralster read today that OU signed a 7 ft juco player.
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@konkeyDong – “They could all coexist as long as we don’t sign any back-court players that are going to demand instant minutes.”
And therein lies the rub …
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@HighEliteMajor-Again…swish…
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I just don’t see a possibility of CF transferring out of KU.
He is a diehard Jayhawk. And for what purpose would it suit him better to transfer? PT at a lessor school? To do what, show off his talent to give him a shot in the NBA?
Kansas is where CF belongs, regardless of the PT minutes he will earn. And I bet he’ll earn plenty of valuable PT minutes as a Jayhawk.
If CF is pursuing a basketball-related career, look what he earns on his resume as his leaves Kansas after earning his degree. He will have 4 or 5 years of experience with Self and staff… and a Jayhawk passport allowing him access directly into the world of basketball coaching.
If CF wants to get paid for playing after Kansas, he will discover his Jayhawk passport quite useful at getting him a chance in European leagues. Kansas has a great rep abroad.
Going to a school, like Creighton, would do nothing to raise CF’s future basketball stock, and a Bluejay passport is only valid in Omaha… only important if CF desires a career as an insurance agent.
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@drgnslayr I can wishfully envision him as a next gen John Stockton as he matures. Gaawd! Wouldn’t that be a site to behold?!
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You nailed it.
In all fairness, we have yet to see have Frankamp can do since we have only gotten glimpses of him. The only sub 6 foot players that make it to the NBA are supper athletic, super fast guards that can penetrate and also shoot; I don’t thing that described Frankamp…at least not yet. This would imply that his potential to play in the NBA is very small. However, his potential as a coach would seem to be very good and an apprenticeship with Coach Self would be a very good first step towards that goal.
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It really is up to him on how hard he wants to work (and sacrifice) to play at the next level.
We just watched a dominant San Antonio team manhandle the Heat with tiny Tony Parker at the helm… and what about his backup, Patty Mills?
CF might not be as athletic as either one of those guys now… but what could he be like in another 3 years if he works out diligently every breathing moment between now and then?
And if he wants to have a college life so he can enjoy these golden years, great! He can still either play abroad or find a career in coaching.
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@drgnslayr That thinning hair is normally caused by high testosterone levels. It should mean Hudy and the Training Table could do wonders for CF. But I’m not sure about his frame. I’ve never seen him up close but my impression is he isn’t very big boned. That could limit his physical potential.
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@drgnslayr Sometimes it is not up to the player and how hard he wants to work. Genetics plays a part. So does opportunity, circumstance, luck, etc. The statement that it’s up to him implies that if he doesn’t make it, either at KU or in the NBA or overseas, it was because he didn’t work hard enough. That might not be the case.
Sadly, we are all not created equal, and often times no amount of hard work can change that.
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@Crimsonorblue22 @ralster Ford just got some senior transfer PG from LSU. Anthony Hickey, who was apparently shown the door by LSU, is immediately eligible for Okie St. From the espn article:
“As a junior in 2013-14, Hickey averaged 8.4 points, 3.7 assists and 2.8 rebounds. He shot 34.4 percent from beyond the arc and led the team with 62 steals.”
So there’s another puzzle piece for Ford. Doesn’t sound like a game-changer, but at least they’ll have someone with high level D1 experience available to handle the rock.
The funniest part of the ESPN article was this:
“Hickey will try to fill the void left by Marcus Smart, who made himself eligible for the NBA draft after a strong sophomore season.”
Smart had a strong sophomore season? LOL. Idk, I guess that’s just not how I would characterize it.
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@icthawkfan316 Don’t know if the writer was aware Smart was good enough to go to the NBA after his Freshman year or just avoiding a questionable Sophomore year.
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@icthawkfan316 “Sadly, we are all not created equal, and often times no amount of hard work can change that.”
Watch it there, @konkeyDong is lurking …
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@HighEliteMajor PERFECT QUOTE! We are only ideologically equal in the eyes of the law. And for the opportunities we think all humans should have. “All men are created equal…” is a phrase from our laws of the land.
Now speaking about physical prowess, or physical size, or foot speed, or mental ability (IQ), or will power, or even the genetic ratio of fast- to slow-twitch muscle fibers…we are all different. Nothing is equal.
I remember my first day of class at KU professional school…A KU physician who also lectured as an Ethicist grandly announced as he started his lecture to all 200 of us: “All your life you have been taught that all men are created equal…and while that may be true in the eyes of the law, I would postulate to you that all men are NOT created equal…” (And thus began our introduction and detailed study of the genetics and prevalence of various human ailments and conditions, as well as the variety of ways people respond to treatments, etc…).
Short answer: Always get specific. Connor Frankamp’s job is to maximize all the aspect Connor Frankamp can change. He isnt going to change his physique to morph into Selden or Smart’s size. Let’s just content ourselves and see just how far Connor Frankamp can develop his skills and his game (& his confidence). I’d like to see what a maxxed out Frankamp can do for us.
(Honestly, I feel we are talking about something everybody knows intuitively…so I guess I’m just spelling it out for the ‘idealists’…there is NO hiding behind idealism, when the reality of physicality and size and skills is just evident every time we watch basketball (or play it)). I guess I dont mind the abstract discussion of this.
RCJH
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@ralster Great post-I tell my kids everyone has strengths and weaknesses.
Don’t rest on your strengths, but try to develop them. And work on your weaknesses as well. (At some point though we all see diminishing returns-at least I did.)
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KU’s Open Camp Scrimmage: June 18, 2014
