KU Sports - Oct 28: Bill Self: Kansas hoops lineup coming clear
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“You would think that Tarik (Black), Perry (Ellis), Wayne (Selden), Andrew (Wiggins) and Naadir (Tharpe) would probably have a head start on everybody, because that’s kind of how we’ve viewed it, and that’s kind of how they’ve been since the first day,” KU coach Bill Self said Sunday at his Assists Foundation’s Fall Festival and Equipment Drive at Abe & Jake’s Landing.
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No surprises there. The real interesting battle now is for positions 6 through 9. I think here is the pecking order, with 9th person getting less than 10 minutes and not playing in tight games. 6. Andrew White III (backing up Wiggins and Selden) 7. Jamari Taylor (first big off the bench - experience counts) 8. Joel Embiid (Has to play - will continue to take minutes away from both Jamari and Black as the season goes) 9. Frank Mason (Greene is the more talented player, but need a ball handler to spell Tharpe for a few minutes. Naadir will log 30+ minutes this season.)
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FarSide … I think you have it pinned down precisely right; perhaps Embiid gets those extra minutes sooner rather than later.
The real story line is who might redshirt … Frankamp or Greene. Frankamp makes the most sense. But if there is an injury to Tharpe or Mason, Frankamp is likely the next choice. So it could get pulled off of him in that situation.
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HEM, I just wanna say that Im glad you are posting on here. You and Slayr both.
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Thanks, Lulu!
FarSideHawk, I think you nailed it by saying it’s a battle now for positions 6 through 9. I just don’t see how we stop at 9. I’d hate to see Greene be 10 and basically sit out a year. If that will be the case, I hope Self works it out over the next couple weeks so he can redshirt. It is a real disservice to let a player of his skill level rot on the bench for a year while losing eligibility. That’s a good way to lose a player to transfer, and I definitely see the potential in Greene down the road and would hate to lose him.
I hope we tailor (out of habit I almost wrote Taylor) minutes based on how players performed recently, like in practice. You want to keep them all on their toes and all fighting for a spot right through March.
This team can’t afford to be complacent. There are too many rough edges to work out and realistically we won’t be able to polish everything this year. The key for this team winning in March is to have them bringing the intensity to every practice as well as every game.
BTW: I can see Frankamp or Greene redshirting.
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With all the hype and a young inexperience team I was a little worried, But at the end of the day “or at least this one”. #1 Naddir is our best point guard. " Solid and Consistent". #2 Wiggins is our most athltic player. " Slasher " And can dominate at times. #3 Ellis Best forward, good mid range shot. Great body control and can dominate at times. #4 White best Natural shooting guard, Perimeter defender and can dominate at times. #5 Good rebounding, Defending and spacing will make this season Special.
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Sorry about big print not sure what happend there!
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@basketballfan Hey if you used # it makes the text big… try editing the post and using the bulleted list icon instead (third icon)
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Frankamp is the no brainer when it comes to the redshirt option. Frankamps only OUTSTANDING positive attribute is his three point accuracy. But his lack of speed, quickness, and strength are too detrimental to the defensive oriented basketball philosophy of Coach Self. Even if Frankamp can shoot 5% better from behind the arc than Greene, he is slower than Greene and gives up 6 inches and 40 plus pounds. Knowing that Greene is only going to get very few minutes, I wish he could redshirt too. Not going to happen, though.
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Do you think w/the new rule changes that we might see more than usual zones? If so, would Coach Self keep Connor? It would be nice to red-shirt both of them.
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It’s a good problem to have, to have this depth. I really think Greene could be a headliner by next year and would love to see him get some playing time this year, but know that that won’t happen (no Roy like 5 for 5 subs).
I still think Frankamp takes the redshirt and Greene will get the opportunity (carrot) to steal some back-up minutes from White.
Even if there is an injury to Tharpe or Mason, I think Self will go to his “emergency point”, rather than Frankamp this year.
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If Greene redshirts, that puts two years between White and him, which helps both get playing time. It also locks him into the program, since he would lose a year of eligibility if he transferred. But: does he want to wait 5 years before turning pro?
I think Frankamp would accept a redshirt more readily, since KU will likely be the high point of his basketball career.
I’d be tempted to roll the dice and keep them all handy for a big season right now.
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@crimson–maybe a tiny bit more than usual. But I don’t think Self changes, and his bread and butter has always been M2M D. I don’t think he is going to adjust his core philosophy in the first year of the new rule system.
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Frankamp makes the most sense to redshirt this year. Bill Self has said this summer that if we needed it Selden or even Wiggins could help bring the ball up the floor. So it doesn’t seem that pressing to have a 3rd point guard wasting a year on the bench just in case. But honestly I wouldn’t have a problem with both Greene and Frankamp red shirting, it’s helped so many other players for us in the past.
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Lulu … thanks. Enjoy your posts as well.
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Blown, I meant if other teams played zone, Connor could get his shots off easier.
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The Greene/Frankamp thing is concerning to me. And this goes directly to landing to Wiggins. Wiggins’ signing impacts both. I agree with farside … I think Greene is the real deal. But roster numbers are the issue. Greene and Frankamp can count.
It really goes back to the Peters/Traylor/Lucas discussion from last season. It was pretty clear that one of them would get pushed out voluntarily or involuntarily, It was numbers. Lots of posters protested that suggestion. But you have kids that get one chance at college hoops. Roadblocks and being on the bench don’t sit well. Milton Doyle ditched after seeing his competition in Europe. Smart move. And now we know why Self helped Adams with his decision, right?
Now, for 2014-15 … we have Tharpe, Mason, Frankamp, White, Greene, and Oubre. One certainly won’t play. I think the non-player comes from the same list as this season … White, Greene, or Frankamp. White was the redshirt speculation, but that has ended. Tharpe and Mason are your ballhandlers and Oubre is a top 10ish player (I’m presuming he’s in the rotation at least). So White, Greene, or Frankamp.
While the logic set forth by Parishawk on Greene redshirting makes sense, my hunch says Frankamp. He’s in state, a clear four year player, no clear position, needs the weight room, etc. With Greene, he’s out of state, not a clear 4 year player, bigger guy, appears more game ready, and appears to be a bigger risk to transfer.
What is the price of the Wiggins’ signing? Could it be a Greene transfer? I hope not. A Frankamp redshirt would maybe establish the pecking order, and thus may make Greene feel a bit better.
Remember what we were saying about Adams and Tharpe this time last season … we were looking at numbers with the incoming freshmen. Selden had just committed – Greene, Frankamp, with White in the fold too. Adams ended up leaving. It could have been Tharpe.
It’s just an interesting dynamic worth watching.
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I think it depends on a few things, including the gap in shooting ability between White / Greene / Frankamp. Self needs a shooter that will keep the D honest - if Frankamp is significantly more consistent than the other two, he won’t get redshirted.
Also, I think it’s interesting thinking about how McClemore’s stock was significantly improved by being off the radar for a red-shirt year and then bursting onto the scout’s scene. I wonder whether Brannan is anticipated to be a 4 year guy. This might be a route that Brannan is interested in if he wants to leave early, and wants to improve his stock.
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We’ve been reading about Frankamp seemingly for 3 years now, I’m not sure if I can take it if he redshirts. I want to see him play already!
So I’ll ask this question: Did Self overrecruit? Has he added too many top shelf players and risking some top shelf players becoming disgruntled and either leaving or hurting team chemistry? I’m not sure the answer.
It’s funny because the last few years people were whispering that Self had lost his recruiting touch. I never said that myself, but you all remember hearing/reading it.
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With a team featuring Black, White and Greene, wouldn’t a KU vs. MSU championship match up have a fun angle?
Of course, this is the best reason for not REDshirting Greene. :-p
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I love Greene’s athletic ability, his shooting and driving skills look great. I know he has some work to do, but most freshmen do. We all know Frankamp’s skill at long range and his strength / conditioning weakness.
So why does most of what I read from Self indicate Greene as the most likely RS? We have seen players (like Rio) who despite having plenty of skill for whatever reason don’t fit / buy in to the system. They cant or won’t adjust. So is Greene having issues or is Frankamp just better then he has looked so far?
I tend to think that Frankamp as a specialized weapon ready to use come March, might be a better option then using Greene for minimal minutes throughout the year.
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Think Greene has a higher ceiling, but Conner might benefit us against some zone D. He also can shoot some free throws. I don’t know, sounds like Coach hasn’t decided yet either. I’m sure recruits for next year come in to play too. I can’t wait! Feel bad for so many fans that can’t get game. That’s a bunch of crap!
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Awesome posts! I picked up several things from everyone in here.
We’ll all have answers soon on this one.
I had an odd thought…
We know we may be running into a scholarship limit issue if we land several of these top recruits. Could it be that one of our current scholarship players decides to “pull one for the team” and give up his scholarship and pay his way next year? We had that situation with Wesley thanks to Langford.
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I can’t imagine that would happen, would think a transfer would happen before that. I keep forgetting that Wesley’s in this group too. So many unknowns, but I’m excited to see what happens!
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I’d like to see Conor play before I decide he needs to take a redshirt because he is unathletic (white), can’t play defense (shooters can’t play D), or is too short (same height as Tharpe).
Frankamp was rated above of Greene coming out of high school. Frankamp lead team USA under 17 team in scoring en route to a gold medal.
All I’m saying is let’s see how this plays out on the court. Bill is in a very enviable position right now!
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All good points, and I have the same concerns regarding redshirt / transfers. I don’t think Self worries about over recruiting. He gets the best players that he can get. Of course, he would prefer that guys stick around (in most cases). He once said that he doesn’t worry about playing time…that takes care of itself. Certainly landing Wiggins made the redshirt / transfer concerns more of an issue. Self. or most any coach is not going to turn down a talented kid (even one way less talented than Wiggins) if it improves the talent level of the team…even if it creates playing / transfer issues. I think we as fans worry about it more than the coaches do.
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I’m pretty sure Conner is athletic, even though you say he isn’t cause he’s white! That’s all I have to say about that!
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The comments on this story at KU Sports is swelling due to the constant seeding of the staff members.
While I think it’s great to get their input, I find it fascinating that they didn’t engage like that before…
Moreover, if part of their concern was the amount of time that it took staff to patrol the comments and remove comments in violation of policy, I think they need to take a quick calculation of their time spent on the site now and see if it has really worked out in their favor.
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Hell no they didn’t engage like that before. They just wrote their regurgitated story from another site who got to it first or re wrote the same story about Coach Self’s press conference from a different angle. Now, they are actually commenting more often and engaging with the replies. Im still not posting on that site anymore.
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crimson … I think dylans was stating the assumptions made about CF, rather than stating his opinion, e.g., not athletic because he’s white.
On CF, my view on the redshirt is mainly because he is a four year player, small, and his role is not defined.
The question is not whether he’d help … it’s whether, based on his projected minutes, his value is substantially higher than someone else who could do his job (Mason as backup PG or Greene as the 2nd 2/3 off the bench). If the difference is just marginal, then it makes sense.
I suggest CF because I like him and see much greater value in years 3, 4 and 5 than year 1. With Greene, he could start next season. I don’t see that with Frankamp. I just think that Frankamp will be an incredible weapon in a few years, and his value this season may be marginal this season.
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@HEM You got it I think Connor is a fantastic athlete who will impact this program. When is the question. I wonder if Self was talking up Mason (ranked 70ish) to stop any potential transfer talk before it started or if he’s the real deal? Frankamp is a top 30 player and has performed well on the international stage. Does Frankamp have handles though?
I can’t wait for tonight. And I can’t believe as a Kansas resident that I can’t watch the game on tv. I’ve watched every game with few exceptions for 2 decades so what the heck!?!
On the internet I go searching for a feed.
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@dylans-When trying to access the US firstrow link, the US Govt has seized the site. drgnslayr & I exchanged on that earlier-LOL! Will probably head to BWW for the first half & listen to Bob & Greg loose their composure after that. Highlights should be often & many after the “organized practice.” Also http://firstrowus1.eu/ link was blocked, red flagged & whistled by McAfee site advisor so I won’t download from that link. JMO my friend, but ke sera sera.
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@globaljaybird It’s getting difficult to watch these games. The ticket price is through the roof and its a 6.5 hour drive each way. No TWC in SW kansas, ESPN3 was blacked out for late night. Maybe justin.tv will have a feed?
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@dylans-If this were a reg season game, I would go to one of my kids house & watch, but a practice game? No way I’d endure their obnoxious dogs for PSU. Also I’m old school enough that I always can find something to do in the shop & am content to listen to the radio. How old school? Old enough that we listened to XERS radio from Del Rio TX when I was an adolescent & heard the Wolfman Jack do his “Lovers Special” from his broadcast station in Ciudad Acuña, Mexico about a decade before he was known to most in the States. When a kid,we had an upright Hoffman push button, short wave radio that Mom used to say they could PU Tokyo Rose on during the war. That broadcast I DON’T remember!
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What about radio? iheart radio? I googled jayhawk radio and found quite a few sites. Just a suggestion. Rock Chalk. In my mail today I got a card perssonally signed by HCBill Self with some pocket schedules. After writing to his admin secty. for years asking for schedules, she had Bill sign the card for me! Made my day. (clap)
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Wow, globaljb… that brings up lots of fond memories I have from my childhood when the majority of basketball was enjoyed off of radio. I haven’t gone that route for quite some time but wonder if the quality of MCs can match that of the past. It used to be so much fun imagining the game off their words. Typically, you’d get the crowd reaction ahead of the game calling, so you’d know when something good or bad happened just ahead of the description. The anticipation would help build the adrenaline throughout the entire game.
I’m tempted to record the radio, and then play it in the background of my office sometime. Not sure I’ll get any work done, but it would certainly help pass a slow day!
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I could be off a little, but I believe that Jack Twyman & Chris Schenckle did early NBA games in say 62’-63’, for ABC. Prior to Curt Gowdy & the emergence of the old AFL telecasts there wasn’t much we could pull out 50-60 miles away from KC on an antennae. Stations went off the air to test pattern around 12:00am or so. Pretty much stayed that way till the advent of cable in the early 70’s. I didn’t even see a color tv till about 20 years old, and radio & newspapers were essentially your lifeline without the box. I listened to WLS radio from Chicago when a teenager, before it was possible to get an FM signal out in the sticks. Also enjoyed good years doing the garage band thing to Wilson Pickett, Mitch Ryder, the Drifters & Tops, & then the British invasion. Yes, I’m old Roosevelt, Damn old. And I like those old legend-format radio stations. Shame is, in sports, some old guys stay on toooooo long until they just ramble & ramble, like Musberger or Len Dawson or Bob Knight. They’re to damn old to know when to back away. Like me sometimes. I still like to listen to Kevin Harlan on radio, also Trent Green is a good color guy IMO. Thing diff about radio from tv is the speed that you must paint the picture-some have it & some flat a$$ don’t-anymore, or maybe never did.
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Do I recall correctly that Harry Caray was fired as the Cards announcer for commenting about the young newlyweds in the bleachers saying . “He’s kissing her on the strikes & she’s kissing him on the balls?” If not. it’s a good yarn anyway.
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Also I think Dizzy Dean was let go for poor grammar-using words like “ain’t & cain’t.” He & Pee Wee Reese did the tv game of the week in St Louis we could pull out through the “snow” every great once in a awhile. Dad & I used to watch the Gillette Friday Night fights back in the mid 50’s, from what station I’ve no idea. I’ve posted before I can remember standing up in the crib watching Dad go wild over the radio broadcast when the 52’ Jayhawks won the NC with Big Clyde. Beds were a premium back then & kids didn’t have even get one to share until about time to go to public school. Clyde’s the only guy to win a NC & lead the nation in scoring the same year.
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I was able to watch the game on ESPN3 on Surewest in Olathe. My daughter has AT&T in Lenexa and got the message that the games was blocked. Go figure. Maybe Surewest is so small they forgot to turn it off. Surewest is now called Consolidated Communications or something along these lines.
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globaljaybird…you ever hear Dick Biondi in Chicago on WLS back in the day? First heard him when my dad was stationed at Great Lakes in the early 60’s. Listened to Wolfman when dad was stationed in San Diego. And when we lived in Topeka would listen to WLS or KOMO depending on who had the best signal that night. I also remember the Friday Night Fights. The Lucky Strike Hit Parade. Back in the day. lol
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The version I heard from someone I think would have had access to the truth, was that Harry was diddling with Busch’s wife.
I’ll always assoicate Harry with the brief stint he did with the Chicago White Sox.
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@brooksmd-Biondi’s name does sound sorta familiar. Recall when the Wolfman was in Texas, his schtick was considerably more crude than when he became so popular in the 70’s. Aurthur Godfrey was also popular on radio & tv with talents scouts & cbs news in the 40’s & 50’s & hawked those God-awful Chesterfield cigarettes. In 55’ Elvis was rejected by Godfrey-go figure? The first non religious song I ever learned was “Hound Dog.” Now I’m really movin’ backards’.
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Chesterfield’s, weren’t those the packs with the nice legs in the advertisements?
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@brooksmd-Yes they were. Dad smoked Chesterfield’s, Lucky Strikes, & Pall Malls-pronounced Pell Mell. He told me that during the war they smoked em so short they had to hold them with a straight pin. I spent a summer in SD in 59’ with Dad’s brother the year after he passed. Really good memories of days long ago. La Jolla Beach was still pretty clean then. Really cold, but clean.
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@globaljaybird…I remember La Jolla. Too rich for navy families. We lived in Pacific Beach, right across the road from the beach. Went to PB Jr High early 60’s.
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@brooksmd. SD was also homeport for my older brother from 58’-68’. Spent years as an E.T.in the Pacific on subs during the cold war, before marrying an island girl from Guam. Dad’s bro was a draftsman for Convair Aeronautics & Aunt’s husband was an underwater welding inspector in the Naval shipyards there. Their families lived in Oceanside. Decades of military heritage as well as KU in my blood. Nephew completed BUDS at Pendleton in 93’ there also about thetime my oldest son started at KU. At the time he was the oldest guy to get the Trident, at age 32. Still silent B.A. after all these years. Hooyah!
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@globaljaybird…This is just too much. We were on Guam '56-'58. I was 8 at the time. Great fun as there was still plenty of old WWII equipment to play on. My dad did 22 yrs in Navy, I did 20 in the AF and my wife is a Lt Col in the Louisiana ANG with 28 years under her belt and shooting for 30. This is her in the dome during Katrina.
http://seattletimes.com/html/hurricanekatrina/2002463400_katrinasuperdome01.html
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@brooksmd-Thank you & your family for your decades of sacrifice. Yes sometimes it seems like a really small planet. How small? Two oldest of my brothers children were born in Tokyo in the late 50’s , one in Iran & one in DC in the 60’s. They’ve literally lived all over the entire world. Boy born in Tokyo is a school teacher in SC as is his wife, yet her sister lives almost within shouting distance from me in rural JoCo KS & operates a boarding kennel 1.4 miles from my farm.
