The battle for scholarships/playing time continues: the PG spot
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Seems as if Devonte’ Graham is ready to move to Lawrence for the Summer.
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@wrwlumpy I like the way this kid thinks. His mind is looking in the right places. He’s thinking and learning from the right people.
Devonte’ Graham@im_dat_kid_dtae · May 12
as a PG If u had Nate robinsons heart , Seth currys shooting ability, westbrooks athleticism , cp3s wisdom,& john walls speed
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We have an extra scholarship or two for 2015, right?
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These two footers would give new meaning to the Twin Towers.
Good Grief
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I like him already!
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I’m okay with these guys… as long as they know the following year we’ll be going hard after this guy:
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Best college point guard … Bobby Hurley.
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I can think of several better starting with the big “O” Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, Pete Maravich, Phil Ford and an oldie but goodie Bob Cousy.
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@HighEliteMajor “Best” = goofiest looking?
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@JayHawkFanToo Ok, best college point guard since Reagan was president … how about the last 30 years? I stand corrected, though. But since you didn’t cite any in the last 30 years, I assume we can agree Hurley was a bad ass point guard.
Just for fun, here’s my out of the box, favorite college starting 5 … meaning guys that played their respective positions about as good as someone can play the spot. And I loved their college games.
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Bobby Hurley
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Ray Allen
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Larry Bird
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Thomas Robinson
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Artis Gilmore
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@HighEliteMajor You left “GritGuard” off your list! I like it, and I think you may have cracked Self’s guard code and what he really means. “Lead guard” with the qualifier examples of Robinson, Collins, Chalmers, and maybe Tyshawn…tells us that not only do they handle + score (the combo definition)…but they actually can run the team (lead it) efficiently. Tyshawn would be on the fringe based on that. Play-generation and efficient execution, directing people, and being that vocal “leader” Self always talks about year after year.
To me, he literally is looking for do-it-all types, then goes one concept further: He wants multiple such guys on the floor, so that KU’s attack is runnable by multiple guys on any given possession. That makes us sooo dangerous. Any lead guard can run the play, and accurately time&deliver a lob-assist or feed the post, etc., etc…
Whatever makes the opposing coach keep guessing is what Self wants. You think Billy Donovan would have been successful with his 1-3-1 trapping zone against the 2008 Jayhawks, who possessed 3 such guards? Its a point on which to contemplate what Self is trying to built-in to our playstyle and resiliency, and why he recruits (or targets) certain types of guards. He doesnt always get the guys he wants, or occasionally a guy plateaus out without being able to shine in all areas, and KU’s play then varies consequently.
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@HighEliteMajor Its a tough choice on power forward between Thomas Robinson and Nick Collison. And its interesting that both made it to NC games, although neither won it. I know UNC people might like Hansbrough, but TRob and Collison were better in different ways. Darrell Arthur was definitely better than PsychoT, but didnt get the touches to generate the numbers. Blake Griffin played the 5, so I’ll leave him out of the pure4 discussion, I liked him…but not much of a finesse game with him. TRob, Collison, Arhur all had shooting touch to some degree…
So much of this selection depends on the judging criteria, is it stats, or the collection of skills, or other parameters…?
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Is Connor Frankamp a “small scoring guard”…?
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In that case how about Jay Williams, Chris Paul, John Wall, Derick Rose, Kemba Walker, Jameer Nelson, Derron Williams. Bob Hurley was an incredible college ball player…but so was Adam Morrison; unfortunately the car accident on his first year in the league changed his career and we will never know good he could have been n the NBA had he not had the accident…he was indeed a bad ass PG…in college.
It is difficult to say who is/was the best PG since they all played at different times and for different coaches/systems/teams, some of which make you look a better.
Now about Artis Gilmore…what I remember most about him was his gigantic 'fro. He is undeniably one of the best ever but I personally would go with the “big fella” Kareem.
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First, off, Devonte Graham played on a great high school team with so many D1 bound players that opponents almost certainly could not scheme to stop him. They had to focus on others. So: Graham, like Tharpe before him has never been schemed against in high school and so will be, like Tharpe, overwhelmed when opposing coaches can focus on him. In contrast, Frankamp and Mason reputedly were option one on their high school teams and faced scheming every game they played. So: whatever else may be said about Graham, regardless of his rating rising, or falling, he would be overwhelmed by scheming, if Self were to start him, and so Tharpe and Mason don’t have to worry about being bumped out of starting, if either of them round out their games enough to be starters. And if they don’t, then the next logical choice is to put Selden on point, Frankamp at two, and back up Selden with Mason and Frankamp with Graham, because Graham can supposedly pot the triceratop. Backing up at the two would let Graham develop slowly the first half of the season, and if Graham can’t adjust to D1 speeds his first season, well, then Self just has to slow it down to a walk and go with a three guard rotation of Selden, CF and Mason, each of them taking turns at the point and turns at the two.
One thing in Graham’s favor: he looks like a baby…unlike Frank Mason and CF who look like a couple of 23 year old sailors on shore leave.Graham has a baby face. And he is, despite the nonsense about him being able to body on defense, a very skinny kid. Some babies grow up. He could grow up over the summer. But more likely he will grow up the following summer. By the end of the season, if he looks grown up, then he’s a lock to stay, no matter what the cat drags in for recruits. But at the end of his second season, if he is still baby faced and slender, then he’s a transfer, because Self will rustle up at least two top position specific guards and one combo. That will leave no room for Graham. And not to sound like a broken record but Devonte’s high light reel doesn’t show in left handed highlights; that means defenders will be standing on his right side and saying, “There! There’s the basket to my left, your right.” And he will be whipping the ball around the perimeter faster than you can say, “NOT AMBIDEXTROUS.”
Mason and Frankamp look like locks to me. And they might make quite a backcourt combination, if CF can carry another 10-15 and drain treys at 45%. Hell, Self might even introduce him to his scalp doctor and get him some plugs.
The guy we are really hurting for is the guy everyone foolishly dissed: Milton Doyle. Milton is the length that needed to be rotated in during certain games to make a Mason/CF duo viable when the opposing guards got long from time to time.
Self is a genius at bringing in guys he will eventually have a need for down the road. His problem is he cannot convince them to stick around long enough to make use of them.
Regarding Selden not improving greatly, I have to respectfully disagree all the way out the Van Allen Belts. Selden with working shocks is a lottery pick IMHO. There is probably a better than even chance that Selden’s knees will get better and that Hudy burn of his baby fat. Ten pounds lighter and Wayne Selden becomes an absolute terror in tennies. His only weaknesses were weak trey and a long, but slow first step. A good knee and ten less pounds will resolve both issues. When he’s not fat, and has two good shocks, he will go up faster and farther and so be able to shoot a much higher percentage, AND create more space to shoot the muthah!
Oubre is a hard call. Nobody in recorded history college basketball ever had three long steps that let him dunk from anywhere past half court. So, no, Oubre is not going to match that. Oubre wasn’t much of a trinitarian in high school, but there have been more than a few guys his size that could shoot the trey, but didn’t because their high school team needed them within dunking distance. Back in the dark ages, Lucious Allen never took more than a few long Js at Wyandotte High, but then turned into a dead eye from outside at UCLA and the NBA. During Madness, Chuckie Barkley said he couldn’t really stroke the trey in college and realized he had to learn to do it in the NBA to stay in the NBA. Magic Johnson was a brick laying free mason from outside at Michigan State, then was the same a couple seasons in the L, before committing to mastering a set shot for three that he became very deadly with.
Oubre?
Oubre said in one interview that he felt he could become an excellent outside shooter, if Self asked him to work on it. I gotta believe that Ben Mac and Oubre are working very, very hard on three point shooting together this summer. BenMac lost his accuracy in the L and has to get it back. And he needs someone Oubre’s size to work on it against. And, well, Ben is still the sweetest shooting trey stroker I have seen at KU, so the man could teach Oubre, if anyone could.
Further, Oubre at least appears more aggressive than Wiggins did except in a couple games when he was trying to turn it on to get back up in the draft rankings. Having a seriously aggressive 3 would be a nice change of pace. But we learned indisputably last year from Wigs that OADs won’t go hard to iron for half, or two thirds of a season, in order to protect the merchandize for draft day. If Oubre decides follow the same approach to playing that Wigs did, well, Oubre better have a trey gun, and some serious hops, or KU will have real trouble at the trey. But my hunch is that Oubre is a leave it all on the floor type.
One last thing about Oubre: he maybe almost as good as Wiggins, and by playing harder than Wiggins did, he may even approach doing as well as Wiggins did, but he may not look as good doing it. Why? Because Oubre is not going to be being backed up by one of the greatest athletes to play the 5 in quite some time: Embiid. Because there is not Embiid, Oubre could conceivably score MORE than Wigs did much of the season. But it kinda depends on whether any of our 5 get the scoring bug.
My dark horse to do more than anyone expected he could is Traylor. Dr. Frankenself seemed to have elevated Traylor up to the top of Allen Field House and got him bolted by lightening a few times down the stretch. Traylor actually showed some offensive drives and a J. Here’s the impossible claimed possible. Jamari changes the spelling of his last name to Trey-lor and becomes a legitimate stretch 4.
In conclusion, I think there will be enough minutes for most.
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@jaybate 1.0 jb, we can’t forget Greene’s capability from long range. He’s a player whom I expect to make a huge sophomore jump. Here’s hoping Brannen is wily enough to invest lots of hours with BenMac this summer.
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Sorry guys…those guards are gone. Those guards you listed are rare. Players today want a position and have played only one position. They don’t understand the terms that are being mentioned on this board.
I think the idea is great and believe that it works. But, players today can’t play those all purpose type roles, especially guards. The last time it worked for KU was with Reed, Morningstar, Collins, and maybe Taylor. EJ, BMac, Wiggins, and even Tharpe just didn’t quite get the concept. It seems that when Self pushes those positions on players they just can’t get it. The only ones of this group that might get it could be Greene, Connor, and Selden. I think Graham and Mason are too set in their high school roles. I think Mason could “combo” or “lead” if he was a bit taller. Graham may eventually get it. He is a true point guard from high school. We’ll see if he can play within Self’s guard system.
I also agree that if the guards buy into Self’s guard ideas, it works…2008 proved it.
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I agree completely that those guys listed above are gone. There’s probably not going to be another Oscar Robertson, or Bob Cousy, or Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, etc. Those guys were all time greats. You see one of those guys once a generation, if you’re lucky.
But I think guys now are actually getting to be more of a well rounded player. 25 years ago, nobody expected a PG to score, so lots of college PGs entered school absolutely not being able to shoot at all. Remember when Jason Kidd first arrived at Cal? He was a terrible shooter. He shot 29% from 3 as a freshman. Shot 36% as a sophomore. He never shot above 37% from 3 until 2007-08, his 14th year in the NBA!
But then, no one expected PGs to score. They were supposed to pass and set up the offense. Now, people have discovered that since they have the ball in their hands so much, PGs almost have to be able to score to be effective. Think about a guy like Doug Gottlieb. He was an awful shooter, couldn’t score at all. I can say pretty confidently that he probably could not be a starting PG at a major school in this day and age because he would be an offensive liability.
The thing is, once you cross from the mid level to the elite level, any weaknesses get exposed. There’s almost no margin for error at the top. Think about that 08 Final Four. Four #1 seeds, all legitimately talented top to bottom. Memphis basically overwhelmed UCLA and KU did the same to UNC because those two teams didn’t have the athletes to match up. I remember watching those games and thinking to myself that the only player UCLA had that could have played at Memphis was Russell Westbrook, and that the only player UNC had that could have played at Kansas was Ty Lawson. Hansbrough, Love, Collison, Ellington, etc. all looked overmatched in those games, not because they weren’t great college players, but because they didn’t match up with more elite athletes. Kevin Love figured out how to be effective without elite athleticism, and has become an NBA star. Those other guys are all backups because they never figured out how to be well rounded without elite level athleticism.
So what does that have to do with the KU PG matchup? Well, Mason and Frankamp both have an uphill climb because they just don’t have the elite level athleticism. Mason is more athletic than Conner, but he’s also shorter. Conner is an excellent shooter, but he’s not particularly strong or tall, so a bigger defender can snuff out his shot without being compromised by quickness. And this is where Graham fits in. If you want to trade blows with the best teams next year, you need a strong backcourt that can handle things physically, because UK has the Harrison twins and we all saw them basically bully Wichita State in the Round of 32 (and they didn’t even play that well, honestly).
Being able to just be more physically imposing is huge because it means that your opponent can’t take away certain options from you. Graham’s size gives him that. Whether that translates to D1 remains to be seen, but his physical stature gives him a head start.
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@truehawk93 Interestingly, your final sentence: “…if the guards buy into Self’s guard ideas, it works…2008 proved it.” sort of is at odds with the rest of the post (“those guards are gone. The guards you listed are rare”.)–> I’m not nitpicking, but it made me think some more. Thing is, it seems Self is the one who is demanding such complete play from his guards, and has been demanding such…and largely getting such play ever since he was at Illinois. I see him keep trying to raise the bar on guard play. He’s succeeded to the degree of having one of the highest W/L% in coaching history. His ideas seem to have been proven, provided whichever guard can perform to the “level” of (2008 team, and possibly the 2012 team). Those are Self’s 2 NC/Final Four runs. Those guards and those teams deserve HIGH scrutiny and study, in the effort to meet that ‘bar’ those teams set.
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@jaybate 1.0 Great post. In Cliff Alexander and Kelly Oubre, we have 2 prototypical Bill Self-type warriors. If Self is “crafty”, he does ask Oubre to work on his 3gun, and if half of his ‘touches’ are for a 3att with a 30% trey gun…then that about insures Oubre returns for Yr2? Sly food for thought…
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[link text](link url)[http://www2.kusports.com/news/2014/may/15/ukranie-wing-mykhailiuk-visit-ku/?mens_basketball](link url)
Exactly, hence the reason for Tharpe having to leave. You yourself said in the Euro kid’s post that Tharpe left for obvious playing/player reasons. He just didn’t quite measure up to Self’s expectations. I think Tharpe was a great ‘get’ when the getting was good. But you have to remember what was going on when Self grabbed Tharpe, particularly with the pg situation.
Self missed on Josiah Turner, Marcus Smart, and the twins. But it all started with Josiah Turner. This is when Self’s pg woes began. I think Tharpe was a 3rd option, but Self just couldn’t pick up a pg. The reason was because he had Collins, Taylor, and EJ all waiting in the wings. Actually, in all fairness to these pgs that passed on KU, it was a fair gamble for them. Turner imploded at zona, so it may have worked out for KU in the long run. But he would’ve battled the three above players. But, I think Turner would’ve been between Taylor and EJ. EJ would’ve played a true 2 with Turner and likely not have either Taylor or Tharpe.
My point is yes Self’s system works, but it has been argued that may be the reason many pgs in particular pass on KU because Self’s system is demanding and highly complex for most players. I think they prefer to play a more pure pg, 2 or 3…etc. They don’t like coming in to a system like Self’s and expecting to flex into a position they aren’t accustomed to playing. You are actually proving my points.
Look who Self has brought so far: Connor, Greene, and now Graham. Now go back to 2008 team and look who Self had…you obviously know that Chalmers, Collins, and Robinson were the top guards…now look more recently at BStar, Collins, Reed, etc. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. But my arguement isn’t against what Self demands or wants, I get it, it’s the player that doesn’t want to play within Self’s demands. This Euro kid will fit perfectly in Self’s system. Hence why Self is after him BIG.
Now, this is why I said “those guards are gone.” You won’t find many and most aren’t going to KU because of Self’s system. It’s too demanding for guards. I think this is why EJ and Tharpe struggled. TT was fair and worked within Self’s system. But 1-2s tend to struggle with Self’s system. This is why we have ZERO pg leadership right now. We don’t have an alpha dog pg that can run the show, it’s not Self’s system. These kids are confused as to what Self seems to want. Tharpe was the poster child for playing confused, heck, even BStar had his moments, but he understood Self’s system. Reed understood Self’s system too. Collins, Robinson, and Chalmers all got it. But I’ll say it again, Chalmers and Collins were alpha dog pgs/‘lead’ guards. I hate those terms because to me, they make no sense. The teams having success have true players at their positions.
I’ll end my rant this way. I drive around and see a service van with: Plumbing, Heating, and Electrical. I think to myself, what do they do? Well, the van says they do all three. But which is their specialty? I want the best I can get for my money. If I need a electrician, I don’t want some plumber or h-vac specialty working my electrical. Yes, they may be cross-trained in all three, but I want a specialist to work my problem, not a jack of all trades that’s diversifying to make an extra buck in the market. BUT, if they can do all three well, then by all means take my business and fix my problem…it’s the same with these players. They’re capable, but in the end, it’s just too much for some. This Euro kid is exactly what your yelling about.
Read kusports and what this kid says. Yes, you’re going to focus on the kids dreams to play in the NBA and pass…I get that, but he still meets your prototypical KU player…
I’m thinking about going to pro, going to college. Both sides have advantages and disadvantages. I’m still thinking,” Mykhailiuk told Jonathan Givony of draftexpress.com at the Nike Hoops Summit. “I play shooting guard, point guard, wing. I am a universal player from 1 (point guard) to 3 (small forward). I think I showed what I can do in the previous European Championship.
HEM + Mykhailiuk = UNIVERAL PLAYER, lead, combo, whatever the heck you want to call it…you’re shooting yourself in the foot with this kid. And I hear you LOUD and CLEAR, you don’t mind having him, but you’ve made it clear how you really feel about him.
You’re arguing against the very player you’re trying to convince me that you want for KU, except for the fact that he’ll be here 2 years and then try to go pro. But he’s here for 2 years and Kaun was here for 4 years. His dad is is a professor. Don’t we have an opening at KU in the English dept? hmm…The kid has a great academic record and may stay the full term. I think it’s a gamble worth taking. Worse case KU gets a great kid for 2 years, then turns pro. So, what’s new? At least he’s not OAD. And YES HEM, we may lose another player to a transfer, but that’s college bball.
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@JRyman are you ok? Haven’t heard from you!!!
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@icthawkfan316 before even giving it any thought or reading everyones post, I honestly have no idea who will win the start. My guess off the cuff is Mason. He is so much like Sherron. BUT he needs to distribute better
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“Connor is a kind of a shorter version of Curry. I just wish he was around the true 6’2 or 6’3 range. He’d be nasty to handle. But his biggest weakness is his defense and feet. He’s just going to struggle with his size, feet, and lack of length. His shot and his IQ are his natural talents. He had to work hard to get his shot to be at this level. I want nothing but success for Connor.”
I agree with your post… except that Conner is another Curry. Conner right now is only a catch-and-shoot shooter. He doesn’t create his own shot, his own scoring space like Curry did (and does).
You are right on about him struggling with his size, feet and length. He can work hard and improve two of those categories… and that is enough to become a dominant college player. I totally expect to see a different guy next fall. I expect him to add 10 lbs of muscle between now and then. He’ll still be a small, thin guy… but when you add some strength onto a frame of a smart competitor (like Conner), he’ll make the most of his strength improvements.
Conner showed noticeable improvement in his foot speed already in his freshman year. He couldn’t keep up with the game at the beginning… by the end, he was keeping up. Now… if he can learn to move ahead of the game, so he can create his own scoring space and also become a lock down defender, he’ll become one heck of a college player!
The odds all work against Conner. So he’ll have to fight for everything he gets. That really isn’t a bad scenario for a tough, competitive player to be in. I’m not worried about Conner. He’s also a smart player. He’ll find a way to be productive and a way for him to inject his game into Jayhawk basketball and become a contributor.
