Erron Harris leaving West Virginia, Wigs digs on Stanford and other topics.
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@icthawkfan316 nobody can replace Self, but if he left I like Tony Bennett. I’ve watched a few games, but love the way they play D
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@KUSTEVE oh no, we didn’t schedule WSU? Looks like a terrific schedule, can’t wait!
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My guess, as a Badger fan too, is he’s waiting out Bo Ryan, who’s in his upper 60’s and will go back to his home state. I sometimes wonder if us KU fans would enjoy having a team that kills on defense, but doesn’t have a high flying offense. That’s been Bennett’s trademark.
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@Crimsonorblue22 LOL. WSU needs to save their strength for the likes of Indiana St.
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@icthawkfan316 Watch their vids. Oubre especially can take a hit and finish. This is what hurt Wigs from time to time. He couldn’t take too much contact and finish. He missed several layups because of contact or sometimes no contact. Wiggins was pampered in high school. All these kids have to make an adjustment to D1, especially B12 style of play. I think that’s what they learn. You read the quotes from Wigs and Embiid, and they constantly commented on how physical the game was at the college level. The B12 was especially physical this year.
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@truehawk93 wouldn’t it be fun to see a defensive hilite film! I’ve always heard Self says he can coach them up on D. I know he proved that w/wiggins and Selden , but the rest??? The rule changes were tough w/this team, I think. Would love to hear what coach thinks about that.
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The thing too in discussing potential replacements is not that we want or expect Self to go anywhere, but a “plan for the worst” mentality. The administration no doubt keeps a list for such an occasion. No harm in guessing as to whom we think might be on that list, or who we would want.
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@Crimsonorblue22 They were learning D late. I’d say as late as the B12 tourney. They were just not very intensive on D. The most intensity they showed was the press against Stanford. That press was outstanding. I was really impressed. Heck, I think it even impressed Self. I think Self was surprised they actually got the ball. They looked much like the '08 team.
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@truehawk93 so maybe oubre will find that same thing out?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Fraid so. But he doesn’t shy away from contact. I was a little shocked at Selden shying away from contact when he went away from the Stanford defender and was blocked, instead of going into him. Selden is big and strong. He needs to play to his body like Smart did so many times.
As much as Smart goofed this year, I still think he should’ve been a Jayhawk. He was our missing piece of the puzzle folks.
Dang it…everytime I watched Smart, I saw him in a KU uni. It hurt too. He was meant to be KU’s next pg. What we would’ve done with him last year and maybe this year is scary. Oh well…moving a long…dang it…I can’t…
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I agree. The change in the contact rules affected teams like KU that rely on defensive pressure a lot more than it did teams that emphasize offense.
I believe over the break, Coach Self will update his defense strategy to cope with the new rules and we will see a much improved defensive team next season.
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@Crimsonorblue22 @truehawk93 Word is that Oubre is a plus defender as well. He’ll be a step back from Wiggins, at least initially, but should be quite a bit better than most freshman are out of the box.
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@JayHawkFanToo I think all coaches will address the rule change. I think you’ll see the better coaches and teams find a way to beat the rule.
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As far as Selfs job goes, everywhere Self goes, you see Zenger too! Can’t say exactly what I’d like too, but you get the picture.
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@Crimsonorblue22 LOL…It will change as Zenger gains confidence and learns. Self has been here long enough to learn things Zenger has to learn. But Zenger is a truehawk too. He was born, reared, and educated in Kansas (minus ksu)…anywho…he’ll be fine. I like Zenger. He’s not Lou Perkins.
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@icthawkfan316 Only sensible recommendation Bill could get from SZ is to advise all his friends to sign up for TWC in case they can’t get to a game in person. Maybe there is a skim scam in that deal, but most fans think it required a donut brain to take it. I know, I know there’s gold in them thar hills for the U with that deal, but there’s a lot of pissed off fans who now miss 6-8 games per year & have little regard for any real “sports knowledge” he could possibly suggest to Self. Some find that possibility downright humorous. Just saying…
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@globaljaybird I was a lucky one to get all the games, 'cept that weird one over turkey day, but my family got it, so lucky again. My folks, other family members called and wrote letters about that mess. I felt so guilty that I could get them! I’m not a Zenger fan. Jmo
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@Crimsonorblue22 Respectfully disagree.
He’s a helluva singer, but he’s in his 80’s and doesn’t know any more about basketball than I do. (But I know enough that we should have played Frankamp more this year)
Yes, I’m kidding.
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@justanotherfan I thought we looked intimidated against Stanford, which is why we were 9 for 22 at the rim. Which is why we lost the game. I don’t think Cliffie would have the same problem.
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@KUSTEVE question, why would we be intimidated w/practicing against some really good big guys? Does Perry go against Tarik every day? Just really wish we could get meaner, tougher!
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@justanotherfan I’m pumped to see Alexander in Lawrence. Oubre too, although he seems like less of a known quality.
What I keep asking myself is who is going to feed these guys the ball? Please don’t say Tharpe, I don’t think my nervous system can take another season of watching him.
I’d be thrilled if Self has a JUCO pg or transfer stud in the pipeline that no one knows about…
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@wrwlumpy-Kool !! I think slayr should give him the first pre-season floor burn award already !!
But that clouds the sky for Greene, White, & Oubre. Damn, I don’t want to loose Brannen. Tharpe, backup, but not Greene.
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Great news. Selden has the potential to be a lottery pick, no question about it.
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Well, if Self should go searching for a transfer or juco pt. guard, he’s going to have to usher someone out the door. Unless, of course, Embiid leaves, and we go with the pt. guard hunt over the prospect of fetching Myles Turner. As has been suggested, it probably is in the program’s best interest for JoJo to announce his decision within the next 10 days. Solid news, Selden’s announcement. Personally, I view “pt. guard by committee” to be a shaky business. I could see us going in the direction of Frankamp 25 minutes, Mason 15. Tharpe subbing for Selden at the 2. Still too much congestion at the 3, esp. if Ellis gets some time at that position. Greene, Oubre, AW3 and maybe a touch of Perry? Something probably needs to give…
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Great news about Selden. He should be able to improve his draft status by coming back. I think he is a key for us to be better next year. Even if Emiid leaves… which I expect. We need Wayne’s toughness and I think he will turn into a leader and more of a consistent scorer. We will have way more experience now and can work the 2 (or 3) talented freshmen in.
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@Hawk8086 Yes…wonderful news. Embiid needs to speak with Luc Mbah Mute(sp)…I predicted Selden would be back. I am predicting that Embiid is back too. This teams is going to be special without Wiggins. Nothing but all due respect for Wiggins, but I really think he was a bit of a distraction, albatross, and ironically achilles heel. Don’t get me wrong, he was great and everything many thought, but kind of a cog in the team’s wheel. I think we’ll see an even better chemistry with him gone. Wiggins will always be loved and appreciated, but going to the NBA is the best for him right now, not KU.
The longer Embiid waits, the less chance he is coming back. I think if he comes back, he’ll make the decision between now and the F4. Either way, KU will be in a great position with Turner or Embiid. I think we’d be strong with Embiid, but afraid his back is going to be an ongoing issue.
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I would like to ponder the possibility of Selden working the pg. Also, what are the chances of a possible Lucas transfer? Could AW3 and Lucas both look to transfer? If Mickelson gets the backup 5, Lucas may decide to take his services to another program…maybe Tulsa or SMU? That would be interesting.
Selden
Oubre
Green
Ellis/Alexander/Traylor
Embiid/Turner/Mickelson
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@ajvan I think if Self was going to grab a pg, it would’ve been Lyle. I don’t think he wants a pg because he has the personnel, but not Tharpe. I see a possible AW3 and maybe Lucas transfer. That would give us two extra openings. Lucas may ride the rest of his time regardless of pt. He’s already RS, so not sure what he’d do.
A juco is a possibility but bringing in a pg at this point is too risky. The chemistry may be too volatile. A D1 transfer would have to sit out a year too at any D1 program. So, that would be counter productive. The juco would have to be some kind of special too. I can’t help to remember Appleton. He didn’t work out too well. I think Self and Co need to start working on a 3-4 star pg recruit NOW to lead after Tharpe, Mason and CF graduate.
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@truehawk93 I’m not sure Selden is a PG…I think we all debated this prior to the season starting. I don’t think Lucas transfers. I think that he has a future at KU and I think that Self thinks the same thing. I hope I am right.
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@Hawk8086 Yes we did beat this idea to pieces. But with a year under his belt, it’s just a possibility. I actually think CF earned the pg spot after the Stanford game. I just question his ability to get in the lane and dish.
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@truehawk93 Agree 100% on your PG comments. I think Self believes that Mason can be the guy down the road, if not before. I am only guessing that the reason we stopped recruiting Lyle is that it became a little clearer that Selden was staying.
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@Hawk8086 I love Mason. But he’s just a little bit of Tharpe and a bit of CF. I wish Mason had CF’s IQ and Tharpe’s overall experience, he’d be dangerous. Mason tends to get a little overwhelmed, but he does have a better IQ than Tharpe.
I can’t help to think something is going on with Tharpe. It’s got to be something causing him to be so irradic and mental. Either he’s having off court issues or Self had a talk that has gotten into his head. Either way, Tharpe seems to have lost his edge and ability to lead this team.
That pg is a special position. You don’t just give the ball to anyone. They have to almost be like the head coach or have the coach’s complete confidence. Donovan and Wilbekin have some kind of coach/pg relationship and it shows. That team is playing some kind of ball. But I like MSU at this point. Donovan and Izzo have got to be two of the best tourney coaches in D1 bball. Izzo and Harris are really on the same page too. I think our pg was Smart. Self and Smart would’ve been nasty.
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@truehawk93 At the time we missed on Smart, I was disappointed. Now, I think I’d throw up in my mouth a little bit if I had to watch him flop around the court in a KU uniform.
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@approxinfinity he wouldn’t be allowed to at KU! We (Self) would have made his life a whole lot better!
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@approxinfinity Totally agree…but that’s just it. Self is not Ford. Smart would have been a different player. Ford is trash and he did Smart no favors. If Smart were in a KU uni, he would not have to flop. Self would’ve sit his candy azz on the bench to remind Smart who is/was the head coach. I blame Ford for most of Smart’s stupid behavior. A good coach would’ve taught him and disciplined him.
You would be speaking differently if Smart were playing and KU won another NC.
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@truehawk93 distraction, albatross, Achilles heel, but you think he’s great? A cog in the teams wheel? Wonder what the rest of the team and coaches think? I would keep him in a minute!
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@truehawk93 Sorry but Smart is garbage. Ford doing nothing only allowed Smart to reveal his true character. It would be one thing if this was Ford’s M.O. - that he was notorious for having a team full of floppers. But it’s not. It’s something Smart consciously choose to engage in on his own. You can only point the finger at someone else so much, and even then it’s a cop-out. Of course this is all to say nothing of Smart “leading” his team to two first round tournament exits. Not sure how you can prognosticate another national championship for KU with Smart on board when he couldn’t get anything done at OSU.
On the other hand, I think giving Selden some minutes at the PG spot would be great. I doubt it will happen, but like you illustrated, it would be a way to get Selden, Oubre, & Greene all on the floor at the same time. Or even by sliding players down a position could open up some minutes for Perry at the 3 (something I’m not a big fan of, but people keep pushing it).
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@Crimsonorblue22 I know it sounds crazy or passive aggressive. I loved Wiggins being at KU and he was great. He’s a great asset to the program. But, the results were strange. Something didn’t work right. We didn’t click and Tharpe was only part of the problem. Wigs just didn’t seem to have the alpha dog mentality and he just didn’t quite perform up to his potential at times. I think the team fed off that possibiity. I think the team deferred to Wigs and when he was off, ie. Stanford, we didn’t have anyone else to step up. When he was on, he was on, ie. West Virginia, and we still lost.
Don’t get me wrong KU wasn’t worse off having him, but better off for his being at KU. What if he hadn’t been at KU? But, I just think they were a great group of guys that lke to play together. But they never reached their ceiling. They were close. I think it was the Wigs effect. It wasn’t his fault, but the team isn’t the same with him and they definitely won’t be the same without him. Ultimately, they will be better as he goes pro. It will remove those issues I brought out because they looked a little lost when Wigs wasn’t performing. They depended too much on him to carry the team. He just wasn’t that kind of player. He was great, but not the type to put a team on his shoulders and win games. Maybe we just didn’t have any other player that would pick up some slack when it was needed, ie. Ellis, Selden, or Tharpe. I don’t know…
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Those calling for Ellis to play the 3 need to think about this. Perry got scorched, burned, schooled, punk’d, ect. by every single hybrid 4 that can score from outside. Georges Niang. Jabari Parker. Jonathan Holmes. <add players here> Now do you want Ellis stepping out and guarding the same guys that Wiggins was tasked with shutting down this past year?? I sure as hell don’t. Honestly I didn’t think Perry could guard most 4s this year, not just the guys I mentioned. In the games that featured a serviceable 4, that guy always seemed to be the leading scorer. Ellis needs to man up and learned not to be pushed around so easily. He needs to figure out how he can finish with contact and not pirouette when he goes up. He needs to work on his quickness if he wants to see the 3. He needs to work on rebounding the ball with force, securing the board, and grabbing it with TWO hands.
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@Kip_McSmithers Ellis was a funny player. He’s a great kid and a great ball player. He had an odd year. Again, Wigs may have played a little role in Ellis’ performance. I just think some of these guys were a little confused of their role with Wigs. I think they all deferred to him and Wigs never quite grasped that idea.
Ellis is strange. He tended to disappear too, a bit like Tharpe at times. Ellis had a really inconsistent year. I expect his junior year to be better. I’m mixed with the 3,4 idea for Ellis. I think he could play the 3, but it’s a risk. I don’t think he’s able at this point. Maybe Ellis could work a flop or two in his game plan like Niang for the quicker 3s and compensate for his “speed.” Niang tended to flop when he was beat, and it worked too. Teams flopped against Wigs because they couldn’t beat him. Wigs scouting report by coaches were for their teams to front him and draw charges if possible. Stanford flopped all day to stop Wigs. They didn’t draw too many charges, but they did hold him to 4 pts with that zone. I don’t know exactly how Alexander is going to play with Ellis. Traylor sure came on strong with Ellis.
I waited for Ellis to step up when WIgs was off. He just never quite stepped. Ellis isn’t too quick and he’s not very physical. He avoided contact and not too aggressive. We struggled when teams were physical, like Stanford. When teams bodied Ellis and contested his bunnies, he missed. We were so soft inside, save Black and Traylor.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I can’t find a better word than intimidated to explain going 9 for 22 at the rim. Normally, we would make 60% +. Perry looked over matched again, and had a poor game. The 2nd half, he would get the ball on the block, and he would simply kick it back out because he didn’t even want to try to make a play. Their length messed with our minds, and changed our shots. Once Tarik was gone, so were we.
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@ajvan I thought we saw our new point guard in the tournament. You know, the guy that immediately broke down the other team’s defense, scorched the nets, and almost single handily brought the team back from disaster. The guy that no team could afford to leave open, not even for a second. I wasn’t sold on Francamp until the tournament, but I’m sold. That’s our point guard.
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@wissoxfan83 Good post as usual Wissox. I too am highly optimistic about next season. If Embiid stays, which I think he will, just a gut feeling, I will be elated! But, if he goes, we will be just fine. I don’t know much about Alexander other than he is supposed to be a Beast in the post. I trust that Bill will curb any ahhh personality issues with Cliff just the way he did with the Twins and TT. Not worried about that at all.
Increased pressure on Coach to make a deep tourney run next season? Absolutely. I also kind of agree with Drgn and HEM when they mentioned this loss was more on him than the players. He just does not like to make in game adjustments to give who is on the floor the best chance to win, or to switch line ups to do the same. Case and point Naadir as a Junior was out played by Conner Frankamp a Freshmen! Conner should have played more than 25 min and Coach should have adjusted better to the defenses that Stanford threw at them. But, one thing I disagree with them on is that had Embiid been healthy and been able to play, we would have won anyways without in game adjustments. We would have won. I cant hate or bash on Coach too much because like you said, he has a ring, he has a runner up and he has 10 straight conference champs and 7-8 other tourney titles. The guy wins a lot. He just needs to win another title for KU, asap. Personally I think that if Embiid comes back, the title is ours for the taking.
ps. ive no idea if Harris comes to KU or not, I just heard he was leaving.
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SELF: Not going anywhere. No one, & I mean nobody will add more pressure to Bill Self than what his own competetiveness will add from within himself. He lived the defensive woes that were this odd collection of inconsistent frosh + inconsistent returning players (Ellis/Tharpe). And the word he hates above all else, used to describe his own team: “SOFT!” (simply has got to change. This wasnt a true Bill Self product, as it was too inexperienced). Self wont ever go to OklaState. OSU will be in shambles next year. Ford in hot seat after next season’s pending disaster (TubbyTechies will be better, and TCU will likely be better, as they return several injured starters).
POINT GUARD: Open competition. So far Mason brings more all-around than Frankamp or Tharpe. Mason is faster, fearless, needed experience in decision-making (which he got), and is 190lbs. Next year he could be like Sherron was. His 3 stroke is already better. Tharpe=5’11 combo guard. Mason=5’11 combo guard. Frankamp=6ft combo guard. Not to mention Mason has the confident swagger that Tharpe somehow “lost” (he had it last year), and Frankamp is working to try to show at the D1 level (maybe we saw a glimpse against Stanford?).
Since I am VERY partial to 6’1 or taller combo guards (think RussRob, Tyshawn, EJ), I wouldnt have minded seeing Self try Selden at PG…he could be our version of Smart and 6’4 Kane?
I remain ‘shocked’ that a Div1 player (Tharpe) doesnt have defensive instincts and D1-quickness to be able to be coached to play effective D. This is a very, VERY basic observation from me just watching Tharpe’s technique, as I have played combo guard personally as a 6ft tall, 175lb guy for 20+yrs. I love playing D. D travels. But you cannot have any back or knee/ankle/foot issues to be able to do what is required for true Self-level D. I love watching Bill Self’s teams because, before this year, they played very respectable top10-type D. And, eventhough I am 6ft–> I think D1 guys need to be bigger, stronger, faster. Again, I’ll use Self’s own combo-examples of RussRob, Chalmers, Sherron(strong as a bull, game-changing pace), Tyshawn(unguardable). Regardless of people’s memories of Tyshawn or Elijah…please remember that the combination of those 2 combo-guards (size, length, speed, hops, defense) took us all the way to the champ game in 2012. Even slower Brady from 2009-2011 was a better defender because of 2 chief reasons: his bought-in-to-D dedication, and his 6’4 LENGTH. There has GOT to be something in the equation if a guard is shorter…and sorry, pure offense doesnt suffice. Just showing up with offense is a Roy lesson: score 80+ points and still lose the game. Got to stop the other guy.
Bill Self will look for less TO’s, running the O confidently, swagger, and SOLID defense. The most unfortunate thing for Tharpe is that in crunch time, he was on the bench next to Self, as our headless team went down in defeat. Who was supposed to get the ball to people and get the vaunted Wiggins more touches? The PG. Against EasternKY, Mason looked better than Tharpe. Hell, fresh out of the box against Duke in November, Mason was the best PG (15pts vs. Duke in Madison Square Garden). Look no farther for swagger-PG: Frank Mason.
I cant jump off the Frank Mason train, because he is pulling it faster and faster, like the bull he is…unsafe to jump off!
Undecided on Frankamp. Tharpe has had 4 3ptr games also. It aint about the offense (Wiggins scores 41 and team still loses at WVU). Learn the lesson about Bill Self teams: Defense. Its what wasnt in our wallet this year.
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FRANKAMP:
Positives–> Finally showed his 3form coming off screens, shooting in-rhythm…in 1 game, for what its worth. All season, he’d be so wide open that he was seen “measuring up” his 3attempt, thus taking himself out of his natural shooting rhythm. Did show better on-ball D, compared to Tharpe, and picked up a few steals, in his limited mpg, which was notable.
Negatives–> Will not get any taller. Will be challenged defensively by taller, quicker, faster D1 guards (not so much as Tharpe blow-bys, but they’ll shoot over Conner, I already saw that over and over). Will be challenged by short guards in the mold of Sherron, Mason, VanVleet, etc…who simply are built heftier. Is 165-170lbs. Can his frame gain meaningful weight? He is not built like Keiton Page or Phil Forte, nor ever will be.
(Keep in mind Frank Mason is 190lbs). Consider this example, late in the game vs Stanford: Frankamp got body bumped by some-D1-guard-playing-for-Stanford, fell flat on his face, and we turn it over for a quick 2pts by the opponent. That would not happen to Mason or 195lb RussRob. Consider Brady as an example: limited turnovers, 6’4 length to defend with (A-rated defender), 3 shooting. My fear is Conner gives up too much in height and defensive length, and offensive physicality (I am concerned he has confidence issues. He knows he isnt facing h.s.-level Wichita players anymore). Sometimes you know, as a player, when you are overmatched. Imagine Frankamp vs. 6’5 Smart or 6’4 Deandre Kane. I think TCU or TxTech starts a 6’3 guard.Will Connor Frankamp be content being an off-bench backup for Wayne Selden? And why exactly does Bill Self, royalty program coach, have to mask player-defiencies that should be answered by recruiting? It seems to me that other teams have taken Self’s own “big, tough, athletic, do-it-all ‘combo guard’” concept and are starting to beat KU with it. Maybe we are seeing why Tharpe was ranked #91? If you want to talk sub-6ft guards, is it even fair to compare Frankamp (and Tharpe) to Sherron Collins, who played impactful mpg from Day 1, even on a team with Chalmers and Russell Robinson.
Let me put it another way: I am missing the toughness and length of Brady Morningstar and Tyrel Reed (and Tyshawn and EJ). I think Mason is the most Sherron-like sub6footer combo guard we have.
RECRUITING is the issue. Self was a combo guard himself. He has got to get back to his big-athletic-combo guard concept–> chiefly for defensive reasons. Fred Hoiberg is sold on it. Tubby Smith knows. Travis Ford knows. Once in a while you get an exception like Sherron, or a Fred VanVleet-type (I think Mason may be such…but in Year2)…but in this game, there is NO substitue for size, length, and athleticism. I dont know why we would knowingly go in on a guy who gives up too much in today’s game. The days of Jacque Vaughn are over, and also dead. Plus that is Roy ball, no-D-unless-kid-arrived-with-it (Hinrich, Miles). Even ole Roy may have seen the light: 6’3 Marcus Paige is a shootin’ scoring + distributive “combo” guard. But they still lost, because they couldnt stop the other team (no D). Didnt KSU “own” Tharpe with 6’3 Foster as their PG? You think he would have owned RussRob or Tyshawn or EJ? (no, no, and no). This is what Self’s vaunted guard-play has fallen to. Getting bested/beasted in our own league, then handled/Randled by some lesser known combo from S-t-a-n-f-o-r-d.
SelfBall needs its proper pieces for it’s “system” approach to work. Pieces with the right mentality, right athleticism, right length, right work-ethic. Hate being felled by poor execution of what we know is a proven, winning system. Get em on track, Coach…get your toughest, athletic 5 out there! If I was Deandre Kane or Marcus Smart (or Selden/Greene in ku practice) I’d go fade-away-J or dunk on Frankamp and Tharpe all day. Very simple law of basketball, exploit the weakness, be it lack of size or length or quickness.
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@truehawk93 Your summation of Ellis is spot-on. He is a typical Roy Williams MickeyD type of bigman: 6’8, can score, but SOFT against physicality, and defensively…the 2 attributes Bill Self values the most. The problem is personality-traits are hard to change. Same issue with EJ (mentally passive unless he got ticked off). Successful Bill Self players will arrive with a swagger/confidence…an aggressive mentality you can see even as a freshman. Think of Thomas Robinson, Cole Aldrich in his own way, Darrell Arthur, Embiid has it, the Twins and Wiggins were coaxed to show it, Sherron, Mason, Tyshawn, Chalmers, RussRob, and to a certain extent Reed and Rush and McLemore, and for now Selden showed glimpses (the only man who showed up @TX in Austin, good defender, and tougher-than-Smart in AFH).
Half of this game is mental, but you also have to be able to cash the checks physically. Weakness in either area will get you exploited, as opposing coaches will instruct their players accordingly.
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How about an all-swagger/toughness team:
Embiid, Alexander, Greene(&Oubre), Selden, Mason.
Got to shake things up. Got the depth to give 40-min of hell, the Bill Self way (not the “press” Nolan Richardson way).
Call the #91 Tharpe experiment a learning lesson in what can and cant be coached & taught.
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@ralster I’m with you in that I prefer the guards with size, length, & athleticism, but didn’t Louisville just win a NC starting not one but TWO guards that were an even 6’ tall? I mean, if Pitino can make it work with two surely Self can figure out a way to mask 1 of them.
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@ralster tough and athletic! Throw Mari in there too!
