Love coach self but there is a track record built that's impossible to ignore



  • I have a huge amount of respect and love for Coach self and what he’s meant and done for the University of Kansas and the basketball program. However, I think it’s about time that we start really looking at the possibility that maybe he knows a lot more than what he’s letting on and maybe he’s aware of specific dealings with players that have been ineligible over the past few seasons. Billy Preston, Cliff Alexander, Chieck Diallo, and now Silvio.

    For as much time money and energy that the university has invested in recruiting these players they haven’t had an opportunity to receive their full potential impact for whatever reason, and now with the FBI investigation and Kansas squarely in the crosshairs and, a parent in tim langford who actually mention that this investigation suede his son away from Kansas. Either bill is really that oblivious to what is going on or he’s doing a really bad job at bending the rules.



  • You didn’t even list some of the shadiest recruits of the Self era. Selby, Collins, Arthur, Wright…

    Also the completely legal shenanigans of having Chalmer’s dad on the staff and the Angel Morris situation.



  • I don’t know. I think a lot of it is him just doing what he has to - similar to Sean Miller and anyone else west of the Mississippi - to get recruits to come west. They all wanna go east.

    So not specifically saying he’s cheating more than anyone else, but he has to take more chances on the riskier players than what all of us would consider his real competition.



  • @BShark yeah i forgot about that stuff (i was 21 years old during that time lmao) but good point. Im just really starting to look at this from a neutral perspective and it’s making me wonder I just really hope he is a being Reckless



  • @chriz true but at what cost because if he’s gambling he’s losing a lot



  • @ReggieKansas I actually think Self and/or assistants used to be more directly involved and have been more hands off for awhile now. Just pure conjecture on my part though.



  • Almost all big programs are very careful to avoid being directly involved. As the flagship Adidas school, KU intentionally stays out entirely and let’s Adidas… ummm… assist in matching KU to guys who want to play for a blue blood. Same shady stuff happens with UK and Duke, and Oregon to some degree as the flagship Nike schools. Miller and Pitino got involved because they had to. Book Richardson made these deals happen going back to Tarc. Kentucky has Wes. Duke and Oregon have Nike guys at the EYBL. All the flagship schools get to stay hands off while the top talent magically appears.



  • The issue here appears NOT to be about whether Self and KU and adidas are bending and/or breaking NCAA rules.

    I have NEVER read a book about college basketball recruiting that did not say something to the effect that MOST D1 SCHOOL’S BASKETBALL PROGRAMS ENGAGE IN ACTIVITIES RELATED TO RECRUITMENT AND PLAYER ELIGIBILITY THAT BEND AND/OR BREAK SOME OF THE NCAA REGULATIONS.

    If I recall correctly, Jay Bilas, commentator, attorney, and former college basketball player at Duke, said in an interview something to the effect that most schools have always had players that were not eligible playing and that many players have long gotten incentivized in various kinds of ways not consistent with the rules.

    (Note: Bilas also said that the NCAA wants to use the players BEFORE anyone else gets to use the players and doesn’t much care about how players get used after the NCAA is done using them. That was a pretty damning indictment of the motivations of the NCAA even after one takes into account that Bilas said a lot of the NCAA officials are nice persons.)

    The question rather is whether Self and KU are bending and/or breaking the rules sharply more than is customary among, say, coaches and schools contracted with NIKE. If Self and KU were, then the FBI would probably be warranted in leaving an impression of Self and KUAD as a compromised coach and a compromised program? But not if not.

    Why?

    Why shouldn’t Self be like the only kid with his hand caught in the cookie jar? Why shouldn’t he be singled out and punished? Well, because for the metaphor to fit, Self would appear to be one of nearly 300 plus kids with their hands in the same cookie jar. None of them are in hiding, while Self and KU alone in front of the jar. All 300 plus cookie bandits are right there in plain sight of the FBI, same as they have been in plain sight of the NCAA. If the FBI is going to haul Self and KU in for investigation and leaking, then why not the other 299 cookie bandits too? What gives? Is the FBI understaffed? Does the director of the FBI need KU fans to go out and start helping them by making citizen arrests of the 29? Go figure!

    Clearly, if Self were bending and/or breaking the rules sharply more than is customary among, say, coaches and elite schools contracted with NIKE, then we would expect for Self to have had signed 12-15 OADs the seasons when NIKE-UK and NIKE-Duke had 10 and 9 respectively.

    But that is not what we have observed. Instead, Self has appeared to have had significantly fewer OADs those seasons, and Self has appeared to have had vastly fewer OADs at the 1 and 5 positions. Self has also appeared to have had to make do with increasing numbers of 4-star players, also.

    Clearly, if Self were bending and/or breaking the rules sharply more than is customary among, say, coaches and schools contracted with NIKE, then we would expect for Self to have had 8-10 highly athletic > 39% three point shooters (including one each at the 4 and 5) and ranked between 75 and 100 in a year when NIKE-Villanova had six such players.

    But that is not what we have observed.

    What we have observed is that Self had 3-4 such highly athletic high percentage three point shooters and none at the 4 or 5 positions.

    There is no escaping the following logic: If Self and KU were cheating sharply more than other coaches and teams, he would be getting significantly better and significantly more desirable players than the other coaches and schools.

    He hasn’t been getting the results that the reputed cheating would probably yield, so something else appears to be driving the investigations of and leaks about Self and KU.

    And that brings us back to trying to better understand the role of the Petroshoeco-Agency Complex and the Media-Gaming Complex in all of this.

    (Note: as always, I am just a fan and a layman opining about basketball and events surrounding it. I am not qualified to register a legal opinion about what is going on with Self and KU in the face of this investigation. I can only say I remain baffled by what little I have learned about it so far. )



  • It appears that the latest FBI investigation has caused Langford to look else where.



  • I think he or I mean his dad, was picking home all along.



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    I think he or I mean his dad, was picking home all along.

    Thank goodness Tim took his sons talents elsewhere… :rolling_eyes:



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    I think he or I mean his dad, was picking home all along.

    Tbf Romeo’s first choice was Louisville and that’s where he’d be if not for the FBI stuff.



  • @jaybate-1-0 Try this … surprise, surprise … a prosecutor investigates a person or entity, and not a crime. They probe, they poke around, they interview, the develop sources, etc., all to find a crime. This is what happens in many of the Wall St. cases. They pick a firm, and go after them. Understanding that nearly everyone of them has some dirty laundry. Then, they have the hammer of obstruction of justice to create another crime if cooperation isn’t pristine, and to intimidate into submission – regardless of whether any crime has been committed.

    And this goes to the theory of Nike vs. Adidas, doesn’t it?



  • @HighEliteMajor

    One wonders sometimes.



  • DoubleDD said:

    It appears that the latest FBI investigation has caused Langford to look else where.

    Your comment makes one wonder: cui bono?

    Who, among non-victims, might benefit from the reputed FBI/DOJ process underway communicated, as it has been so far in media, and as the coverage pertains to Self and KU basketball within KUAD, as opposed to the University of Kansas, the last of which (the University Kansas) coverage indicates the FBI identifies as a “victim”? (Note that KUAD is a distinct incorporated entity from the University of Kansas; i.e., it is reputedly a 501.c3 not-for profit corporation long ago spun off from the University of Kansas. Note also that KUAD’s not-for-profit spin-off status is reputedly typical of many, if not most, D1 athletic departments and state universities in D1.)

    Who benefits (if any) from recruits previously considering an adidas-contracted program and coach reputedly leaning away from an adidas-contracted program and coach, at a time when some media coverage portrays said program and coach as being under some kind of cloud of an investigation apparently without presenting evidence of wrong doing by Self and KUAD? Who benefits at this time of the recruiting process this year?

    A related question might be: would those non-victims now benefitting (if any) stand to benefit as much from the FBI/DOJ process, if the portion of the FBI/DOJ process that has referred to Self and KUAD had been deferred (and/or reported differently) unless/until evidence of wrong doing by Self and KUAD were discovered to have been part of the victimizing of KU?

    You note the coverage so far appears likely to have discouraged Langford from signing with Self, and so it appears logical to extrapolate, if you were correct, that it might discourage some other recruits from considering signing with the adidas-contracted Self and KU basketball program, too.

    One wonders: cui bono?

    Finally, it appears reasonable to note here that one probably ought to keep separate and distinct in one’s mind the FBI/DOJ process, which appears (so far) a legitimate, if perhaps tardy, law enforcement activity, with media portrayal of Self and KU basketball, which appears possibly to make one wonder who benefits?

    Ad astra per aspera.

    Rock Chalk!



  • @jaybate-1.0

    You are confusing the KUAD which has always been, still is and will always be parts of the University with Kansas Athletics, Inc. which is an independent non-profit entity.



  • @ReggieKansas Langford was never coming to KU.



  • @Gunman u dont know that for sure unless you are in thr langford family



  • @Gunman I think you are right! I don’t think his dad thought he’d get the adulation he deserved at KU.



  • JayHawkFanToo said:

    @jaybate-1.0

    You are confusing the KUAD which has always been, still is and will always be parts of the University with Kansas Athletics, Inc. which is an independent non-profit entity.

    Excellent. Thanks for the clarification.

    Now we need further clarification.

    What are the scope of activities of KUAD versus Kansas Athletics, Inc.?

    Which organization contracts with Self to be the coach?

    Which organization contracts with Zenger to be the athletic director?

    Which organization contracts with the petroshoeco and receives revenues from the petrosheoco and disburses those revenues?

    Which organization contracts with agents, if any, that represent Self? that represent KU?

    Which organization contracts with marketing and public relations firms to promote KU basketball and to manage public relation issues in media?

    Which organization contracts with the souvenir and apparel firms?

    Which organization contracts with the NCAA and receives TV revenues and Tournament revenues?

    Which organization has legal liability for Self’s and Zenger’s actions in behalf of KU basketball?

    Which organization would be a victim of Self’s and Zenger’s actions in behalf of KU basketball, if found inappropriate?

    Which organization would be a victim of the actions of petroshoeco executives actions and players actions and assistant coaches’ actions involving pay to channel players to KU, if such were found to have occurred?

    Which organization is a member institution of the NCAA by virtue of its legal relationship to KU?

    Which organization owns the land under the athletic facilities?

    Which organization owns the buildings?

    Which organization lets the construction contracts and management contracts related to athletic infrastructure and building and lands.

    Are the two organizations contracted with each other in any activities.

    Is either organization liable for the actions of the other?

    Are officials of KUAD and the University of Kansas on the board of Kansas Athletics, Inc, and if so, do they hold a voting majority on the board of Kansas Athletics, Inc.?

    Is the Board of Regents, University of Kansas, and/or KUAD legally authorized to exercise oversight, managerial personnel selection, and disciplinary enforcement regarding that management and its activites regarding Kansas Athletics, Inc.?

    I hope you, or someone else, has the knowledge and time to answer these questions for all the board rats here, because it would greatly enhance our abilities to understand what may be going on.

    Thanks in advance.

    And Rock Chalk!



  • @jaybate-1.0 probably @dylans, I’m just guessing.🤔



  • @Crimsonorblue22 OMG! l listened to the podcast from the school and for a minute thought we were in the running for a saint-superman combo. When they were introducing people that had infuence on his life and he couldn’t even clap for them my mind was made up.

    One person there for KU, one for Vanderbilt and thousands for Indiana. If he hadn’t chose IU somebody might have left the building needing medical attention.


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