Vent Here....
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@DoubleDD You’re grammer, ain’t that bad. Its much goodly.
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@DoubleDD Every year we defy logic? Right, how does a team with so much talent avoid making the final four?
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@HighEliteMajor This is painfully true. When you look at the talent and winning % you would anticipate at least 5 more F4 and maybe 7-10 since mid 90s.
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@Fightsongwriter Just in comparison to other programs, since Self has been here - UNC 5 Final Fours, Duke 3 FFs, UK 4 FFs, MSU 4 FFs, Louisville 3 FFs, UConn 3 FFs, Florida 3 FFs, Butler 2 FFs, Wisconsin 2 FFs, Ohio St. 2 FFs, Syracuse 2 FFs.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Fightsongwriter Just in comparison to other programs, since Self has been here - UNC 5 Final Fours [EASYGATE, DUMP TRUCKS, ALWAYS MORE TALENT THAN KU], Duke 3 FFs [MEDIUM AND LONG STACKS, ALWAYS MORE TALENT THAN KU ], UK 4 FFs [ALL LONG STACKS, ALWAYS MORE TALENT THAN KU], MSU 4 FFs [LEGITIMATE], Louisville 3 FFs [PROSTITUTION-ASSISTED RECRUITING] UConn 3 FFs [CORRUPTION DEFINED ON FIRST TWO], Florida 3 FFs [HELLUVA COACH THAT GAVE UP ON RECRUITING CORRUPTION AND WENT TO THE PROS TO CASH OUT], Butler 2 FFs GREAT COACH THAT GOT SCREWED OUT OF RINGS, GAVE UP AND WENT TO THE PROS]], Wisconsin 2 FFs [GREAT COACH THAT GOT SCREWED OUT OF TWO RINGS, SAID SO, THEN GOT SMEARED INTO RETIREMENT LIKELY FOR SAYING SO] , Ohio St. 2 FFs [A GUY WHO COULDNT GET IT DONE WITH DUMP TRUCKS], Syracuse 2 FFs [CORRUPTION, FAB MELO, STAFF PEDO ALLEGATIONS].
This was an excellent list to work with.
Self is NOT super human. Ratso, Donovan, and Bo likely were all as good, or better.
But Self is way the heck better than the rest for the period considered.
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Fightsongwriter said:
@HighEliteMajor This is painfully true. When you look at the talent and winning % you would anticipate at least 5 more F4 and maybe 7-10 since mid 90s.
Did some looking as you said sine the mid 90’s - - so I went back to 1996. Saying with the talent we have had that we would anticipate At lest 5 more F4’s - -and maybe 7-10 - -saying that might be just a little off base.
Since 1996 KU , is only behind the leader of reaching the final 4 Kentucky by 3: - - During this 20 yr stretch Kentucky has 7 , final 4’s - - - -N Carolina has 6 - - -Duke has 5 - - KU has 4 - -& Arizona has 2 - -so it’s not like we are sucking hind T - - in relation to this.
Out of these final 4’s reached during this time Duke has reached the Championship game - -4 times - - -Kentucky 4 times - - KU 3 times - -North Carolina 3 times - – & Arizona 2 times. - -so nothing really drastic about that either
So when you say when we look at the talent - then if that’s what we look at then these other teams Duke, Kentucky , & N Carolina for sure should be also reaching the final 4 ALOT more then they have - -it’s not as drastic as some make it to be - -again in that 20 year span you mention -Duke the all and mighty powerful Duke has reached the final 4 ONE more time -& the al mighty Kentucky only 2 more times in a TWETNY year span
There is one other thing that three out of these other four teams has accomplished that Ku hasn’t. - - -and that is? - -in this same 20 yr span - - Three teams haven’t even made the NCAA tourney during this span. - - -North Carolina has failed to even make the tourney 3 years out of this 20 yr span - - -Kentucky has failed to make the tourney 2 times during this span - - & Arizona has failed to make the tourney 1 time during this span. - -How many times has KU made it to the tourney during this same time frame? - - ALL of them - -So I wonder what was going on with all that talent for these teams during those years? - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Another thing of note during this 20 year span when KU made the final four? - -out of those 4 times? - -we made the Championship 3 times.
Out of Kentucky’s 7 times they reached the final 4 during that same span- - - - - they reached the Championship 4 times
Out of N Carolina’s final 4 appearances during this 20 year span - -they had 6 final fours - they reached the Championship - -3 times
So I would say they had nothing on us there either, the difference if you want to try and find things - would actually be in the Championship game it self - KU is just 1-2 in those appearances. Other then that it’s not a bad as some want to try and make it out to be. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Are you saying that even though the other teams failed to make the tournament every year, they still had more final 4s?
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Wow.
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@3genhawk Not sure how long you’ve been posting here or at kusports.com … but back when UK won the title in 2012, UK didn’t make the tourney the following year. There were folks arguing that it was actually better to make the tournament every season, than it was to win national titles and miss it every so often. That conversation occurred when discussing UConn, as well.
It is a mindset that I can’t even fathom.
@jayballer54 So, what do you say about our NCAA performance during Self’s tenure? Satisfied, I assume?
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3genhawk said:
Are you saying that even though the other teams failed to make the tournament every year, they still had more final 4s?
kind of nit picking huh? - ya ok guess they did huh - -also saying that when we get to the final four we do more make it to the championship more huh? - -ROK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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HighEliteMajor said:
@3genhawk Not sure how long you’ve been posting here or at kusports.com … but back when UK won the title in 2012, UK didn’t make the tourney the following year. There were folks arguing that it was actually better to make the tournament every season, than it was to win national titles and miss it every so often. That conversation occurred when discussing UConn, as well.
It is a mindset that I can’t even fathom.
@jayballer54 So, what do you say about our NCAA performance during Self’s tenure? Satisfied, I assume?
Can anyone say that their satisified in any year other the NCAA Champion. - -Every other school ends up as a loser at the end of the year unless you win the Championship.
Would you say you would be satisified if we were to make to more final fours - and end up losing the championship? - -Would you still be playing 2nd fiddle? - Of course you would. - -after all what is the goal at the beginning of each and every season? - -To make the final four on a consistent basis? - -To make the Championship on a regular basis? - - ummm , NO it’s to win the Championship. Not to get to the championship - -everybody but one ends the season with a loss. Whether its in the 1st round or final 4 you failed to accomplish your goal from the beginning of the year.
SO would or is the KU fan base would we be happier if we just made the final four on a more regular basis? - Would that make us feel better, That way we could thump our chest and say HEY we make the final 4 year in and year out to which I reply - - AND? how that work out for ya? - -Unless you win it all - you have accomplished nothing. -You still lost, you have no props. Do we think people will remember who lost in the Championship game year, after year, after year? - -Ask someone who lost the Championship from 10 yrs ago - you think the ordinary sports fan is going t be able to tell you that?
To bag on a team for not making the final four quite frequent is just a reach. - -So many things come into play to be able to do that - it takes ONE bad outing. More cases then not if the teams that knocks you out chances are if you were to play a best of 7 things could be a lot diferent- -but it’s one game.
So let me ask you - -would you be happy making the final 4 every year to end up losing say 50-60 % of the time - If you would be then I say WHY? - -you still lost - -you still came in 2nd. - Is that what we want ? - to be able to boast HEY we finish 2nd - -ALOT - makes perfectly good sense to me - I’m sure those kids are really happy about that - I think not - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor people just make excuses for mediocrity or failed attempts at success. Because KU historically chokes in the tourney and does not play to its potential, under both Roy and Self, people start to concoct reasons and excuses, claiming “at least we make the tournament” and other dumb statements. Not for not are we known as chokers to the rest of the country. VCU, UNI, Bradley, and Oregon were huge letdowns on an embarrassing level (no wissox, embarrassing for the program, not me). People just seem content with winning the conference or getting a couple high profile wins each season. It’s what many have come to expect from Self’s tenure - play well during the season and lay a huge egg in March. To quote Morpheus “his weakness, is not his technique (coaching technique”.
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HawkChamp said:
@HighEliteMajor people just make excuses for mediocrity or failed attempts at success. Because KU historically chokes in the tourney and does not play to its potential, under both Roy and Self, people start to concoct reasons and excuses, claiming “at least we make the tournament” and other dumb statements. Not for not are we known as chokers to the rest of the country. VCU, UNI, Bradley, and Oregon were huge letdowns on an embarrassing level (no wissox, embarrassing for the program, not me). People just seem content with winning the conference or getting a couple high profile wins each season. It’s what many have come to expect from Self’s tenure - play well during the season and lay a huge egg in March. To quote Morpheus “his weakness, is not his technique (coaching technique”.
I will say this - -I know you not referring to me when you say some people likes making excuses, if you are then you got me messed up for somebody else.
What I posted id no way shape or form or any kind of excuse, what I’m saying is solid fact. - if you are one of these people that feel the need that KU goes deeper in the tourney on a more frequent basis - -then you tell me you like still being 2nd fiddle? - -you like being runner up? - you want KU in the final four more often - then you better hope to GOD they win it all - -again you explain to me how is it ANY better as far as accomplishment to make it to the final four/Championship and lose? - You there you lose you tell me what you accomplish? - - Nothing you can twist this shit anyway you want.
At the end of the year, you standing in the Center of the floor hoisting that trophy? - -What? - -No - then you didn’t do shit. Accomplishment wise you gained NOTHING you still came in 2nd. - That for some, and sounds like you that would be ok - -a long as we made more final 4’s - Hell we may of lost but by golly dam we made the title game - -AND? - at you one who likes finishing runner up?
Again EVERY team every single team - -whz their goal at the start of a season? - - To make it to the final 4? - -make the championship? - -if you think that’s what it is - -then you like settling for mediocrity, cause that’s not what the team is thinking - their goal is to win it all. - every team but one ends up losing their last game. - - You talking about people who like making up excuses settling for conference championships, your no different by settling being content happy if we make more final 4’s = = OMFG - -SERIOUSLY?
do you happen to be one of these people that no matter how good a team does - you just wanna wine/bitch - -never satisified? - ya? - well good luck with that - -these other bloods? - -they haven’t been to that many more final 4’s over the past 20 years either - -man O man - -umm , umm , umm -Again you can try an twist this about others whining/ settling all you want - in reality your the one who is settling cause HEY we make it to the final 4 pretty regular - -we may not win the dam thing but by golly we made it - -OH that’s so much better - -I wonder how much room KU has in the trophy case for Almost? - Tell ya what how about you scoot on down the road - jump on one of the other blue bloods coat tails and see if they make the final four year after year and win Championships year after year - -let me know how that works out for ya… Then when they fail you can moan and wine and bitch and complain to them, and settle their for 2nd - -I’m sure that would be great - get really sick of people bitching about how we fail/ underachieve.
There are many many teams that are happy as hell to just make the tourney, US -we have made it like 28 yrs in a row longest in the Nation - but that’s not good enough - we need to be making the final four yr after yr after yr - -So what if we don’t win it - Hell that kind of thinking the only way you come out winning with that attitude is to win the whole dam thing every year - -anything less then that - you failed - you lost PERIOD. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Duke, almighty Duke, in the last 20 yrs: - - 4 time losers in the 1st round - -Arizona - in the last 20 yrs- - 5 time losers in the 1st round
North Carolina in the last 20 yrs:- - 6 time losers in the 2nd round - -Kentucky in the last 20 yrs- -4 time losers in the 2nd round.
These teams have had multiple years where they didn’t even make it to the tourney - yet we moan/bitch cause OH we have underachieved since the middle 90’s should of at least had 7-10 more final fours with the talent we have had. - -Guess UK - -Duke - -& N Carolina must not of had any talent in the last 20 years when they made their early 1st round 2nd round exits. - -I would of thought they would of done better - but they didn’t have the talent. - - I call bullshit. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 An appropriate term for what @HawkChamp is saying is an “apologist.”
I would also say this. You may wonder why things go downhill sometimes with your posting and responses. Try reading what you wrote. Then do a 2 + 2 analysis. But I’m guessing you aren’t going to clue in on the “why” part of it.
Quite frankly, a discussion is not “bitching”, etc., as you want to disjointedly describe it.
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I DECIDED to re think and try to keep my tongue in cheek be the better for it. - -Lots I would like to say - -But I won’t - I’ll just do like I said the new leaf for new years resolution - when I totally disagree, or not waste time - I’l just simply put - -I’ll zip my lip. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor @jayballer54 Did I really say 10? Wow, I totally had my Crimson colored stained glass window eyeglasses on. In my defense, I woke up really early this morning. But 5 more is not out of the question with the great coaches and talent we have had.
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@HighEliteMajor I feel the urge, once again, to jab with a needle at your tough old skin. My personal and time honored MINDSET: Win the league annually; then hope for a national title every couple of decades. Never ever lose in the first two rounds of the NCAA Tourney. Coddle and praise a tenured coaching staff which strives to maintain that level of play. (And, O Yeah, HAVE A NICE DAY!)
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@REHawk I’ll jab back very slightly, my friend. How do you win a national championship if your planning, scheming, and personnel aren’t geared for that goal? I will say that hoping for a national title every couple of decades seems to be aiming a bit low, in my ever so humble opinion.
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@HighEliteMajor Actually, I think it would be terrific to win a pair of national titles every decade. That said, a couple of powerhouse programs, Kentucky and North Carolina, have paid a very high price to do that…crashing the credibility of what some folk would still like to feel is “amateur sport.” Am I an uninformed rube, thinking that the KU hoops program hovers much more closely to the fairer (tho ever changing) RULES OF AMATEURISM? Essentially, I guess that I am saying that schools have to cheat to win clusters of national titles. Of course, Big 12 opponents probably feel the same about Bill Self’s current conference streak…
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Now it appears that Kansas Basketball has reached the point that the “program” has to lever traditionally ineligible players into positions of partial eligibility. Invest enough coin waging legal battles vs a beleaguered and bewildered national accrediting agency…and SHAZAM!, borderline players get to represent the university half a season. (I had to check back to see if my comments were staying within the parameters of the heading for this thread; and, yeah, I suppose I am VENTING.) Of course, who was to know that young Preston would show up on campus behind the steering wheel of a vehicle, the purchase or ownership being suspicious of impropriety?
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@HighEliteMajor You know, I used to think you were something of a pragmatist, a fella pinched a bit tightly into a cassock of pessimism. But now I read your little ditty about Marcus Peters and our Chiefs. Only a died in the wool optimist could enter the words CHIEFS and PLAYED BETTER in the same paragraph!
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Speaking of optimism, when my wife just pointed out that our Jayhawks are set to play 3 games in the next 6 days, two of those away, I blurted, “Hell, we are likely to lose one of those!” She said, “Oh, I believe you might be thinking a bit optimistically!”
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REHawk said:
Now it appears that Kansas Basketball has reached the point that the “program” has to lever traditionally ineligible players into positions of partial eligibility. Invest enough coin waging legal battles vs a beleaguered and bewildered national accrediting agency…and SHAZAM!, borderline players get to represent the university half a season. (I had to check back to see if my comments were staying within the parameters of the heading for this thread; and, yeah, I suppose I am VENTING.) Of course, who was to know that young Preston would show up on campus behind the steering wheel of a vehicle, the purchase or ownership being suspicious of impropriety?
To which we STILL don’t know who this car actually belongs to OR belonged to right? - -Will we EVER know? - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Maybe it was good fortune that Billy hit the curb. Just think if all these issues were somehow brought to light after a season; potentially resulting in vacated wins.
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Blown said:
Maybe it was good fortune that Billy hit the curb. Just think if all these issues were somehow brought to light after a season; potentially resulted in vacated wins.
Agree with that. I’m sure that is the reason he’s sat through the first 9 games. No one player is above the integrity of the program
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As long as we’re venting - to whomever runs KUathletics.com - could you please lose the picture of DeVonte and LaGerald holding hands? Thank you.
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@nuleafjhawk couldn’t see it
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@Crimsonorblue22 Couldn’t see any pics, or that one? Because there’s quite a delay between pictures, but it’s there. Big and bold.
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@Blown Ah, but how many cars and benefits went unnoticed because the player was able to avoid such a mishap? One may never know.
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@HighEliteMajor seemingly nothing is missed for KU Men’s BB the last few years…Selby, Chieck, Alexander, Josh “the Crane Kick Macchio” Jackson, Bragg…but unfortunately, there is an awful lot of truth to your question/statement.
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Ineligible players, transfers, walk-ons actually playing. A football player suiting up shortly, possibly…Is this a sign of something??
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@Ralster Glad to hear from you!
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Wow. It’s been a while; your inside knowledge has been missed. Glad to see you posting again.
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@KUSTEVE I too like what Cunliffe will bring. He’s got to bring something better than what they’ve had up to this point. I’m really hopeful for this Nebraska game. I hope to see Cunliffe provide some valuable contributions that will make the bball pundits pause, and say, “Uh oh, looks like KU will get their act together afterall.”
I just heard Seth Greenberg say that KU will NOT win the B12. I hope KU makes that pompous windbag eat his words. Every year some so-called bball expert goes against Self and Co. I hope Self lives up to his HOFA, and makes Greenberg eat his stupid comments.
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Self has said to be easy on expectations for Sam. Self has also said that he will be a great player but in a few years, ether way just having a guy to go in for a few minutes for Self to bench a guard and tell them why they got pulled . Didn’t really have that the first 10 games. With Marcus and Sam on the bench if Svi and Newman make a few bad play Self can sit them both for a bit (while chewing some butt lol).
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kjayhawks said:
Self has said to be easy on expectations for Sam. Self has also said that he will be a great player but in a few years, ether way just having a guy to go in for a few minutes for Self to bench a guard and tell them why they got pull. Didn’t really have that the first 10 games. With Marcus and Sam on the bench if Svi and Newman make a few bad play Self can sit them both for a bit (while chewing some butt lol).
If he can give 10 okay minutes I think that’s a win.
Cunliffe lacks basketball skills.
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@BShark yep I’d be good with that as well and would expect him to average 8-12 minutes a game this season.
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Defy logic? Yea I think in this case it’s ok to use the term. I’ll tell you why.
I as a KU fan for many years I expected and even deemed the season a failure if KU didn’t at least make the final 4. As you well know year after year. I walked way feeling a little disappointed. I even began to wander if God himself had something against the Jayhawks. I know crazy talk. Right? Hey what’s a fan to do when he is grasping for answers?
Greatly I never gave up and began to really watch the game. Not with just with my fandom, but my intellect (what little I have). Here are some things I figured out or stumbled unto like a man in the dark trying to find the last Twinkie that the wife hid in the kitchen.
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Coach hasn’t had a killer inside game for quite sometime. Maybe not since the Morris Brothers. Don’t get me wrong Trob and the Withey show was quite good, but was it really killer?
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Just looking back on the last couple of years. What was KU’s real downfall? What knocked them out of the tourney and a date with destiny? Bigs in the paint?
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The OAD has really changed the way the game is played and especially how the big boys recruit. It’s kind of Ironic there seems to be more heartbreak than success with the OAD craze. Yet it continues. Which I think allows the really good college players to slip down to lesser schools. In some ways leveling the playing field.
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As we have found out and haven’t seen all the fallout yet. Yet it appears that recruiting top talent isn’t quite as fair as we used to think yesteryear.
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This last May rile the KU posters here? Yet does KU really have great players? The best of the best? Don’t get me wrong KU has some great players. Yet the best of the best. The kind of talent where. A fan can actually say without his or her fandom getting in the way. KU has the best players in the nation and is the best team in the country?
So I say defy logic? Because with everything I posted above, I think Coache’s back is against the wall yet year after year he keeps KU winning and KU in the conversation of NC type team.
Hey I’m just looking at the glass half full.
Are you advocating we need a new direction? Not trying to put you on the spot or anything. Yet your knowledge of the game we love far surpassed my own. What say you?
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Kentucky is trash. Wow.
Syracuse headed to OT with a crappy Georgetown team…
EVEN OUR WINS SUCK. ERMAGERD
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BShark said:
Kentucky is trash. Wow.
Syracuse headed to OT with a crappy Georgetown team…
EVEN OUR WINS SUCK. ERMAGERD
Kentucky will win though
Cuse isn’t supposed to be any good.
I get it, we don’t have a really legitimate win through 9 games.
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I was mostly just being stupid. Not sure a win today changes much but it would be much better than the alternative.
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Can I vent about the Nebraska game too lol. I tell you I’m worried, we don’t even look decent half the time to this point. Watching some of the other B12 games today I’m worried we will struggle to be .500. Even KSUCK looks like they would stomp the daylights outta us to this point. Newman shouldn’t play more than a handful of minutes a game, he’s as lost as a guy can be. Both him and Garrett couldn’t hit the ground with their hat in 3 trys.
