Beaty will be back.
Zenger has already stated that Beaty will return next year.
In the short term, I get that it sucks because the W-L record hasn’t shown anything for Beaty to return.
Personally, I think this is the right call for the big picture view. We can throw the current scholarship numbers out there which makes it look like KU is there or very close, but the reality is KU is still 2 years away from being caught up. Beaty inherited less than 40 scholarship players during the 2015 spring. Today, the number is somewhere in the upper 70’s right now. 2015 was a small senior class like this one and 2016 was a large senior class (27 players I believe). Let’s say KU has graduated somewhere between 35 and 40 seniors the past 2 years. Beaty has brought in 62 players in the 3 recruiting classes he’s veen apart of. Do the math, that means KU is still at about 60 scholarship players that were recruited as scholarship players and somewhere between 15-20 walk ons that have been awarded scholarships at some point.
That means David Beaty inherited a roster with D2 level of depth and has now built to FCS depth. It also means we’re still 2 years away from being caught up and having FBS level depth. If you fire Beaty now, you destroy this recruiting class and keep KU at FCS level depth whole expexting the next coach to succeed with FCS level depth for at least 2 years.
Keeping Beaty for 2018 is the right call because it allows him to build a full recruiting class this year which should put KU somewhere around 70 true scholarship players. Not perfect, but a much better situation to give Beaty’s successor than to bring a new coach in with only 50 true scholarship players which is only about 10 better than what Beaty inherited.
I know it will be frustrating next year because 1 or 2 wins appears likely again, but I will go through that if that means Beaty’s successor has a much better foundation to build upon than what he would have going into 2018.
DoubleDD Banned last edited by DoubleDD
Just want to say thanks for shinning the spot light on something most of us including me don’t understand. To hear you or in this regard read what your logic is. I get it. I know a lot of KU fans will be screw that. Yet you’re right. Nice job sir.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I’ll RELUCTANTLY give you the benefit of the doubt on this…though the lack of progress in player development and the fact that on many plays (many of which I think were poorly called in the first place) the players appeared as if they didn’t know where they were supposed to be (or what they were supposed to do) gives me GREAT pause to accept your premises. However, there is NO DOUBT in my mind that Zenger MUST GO, and MUST GO NOW!!! His record in coach selection is ABYSMAL!! I also don’t think he can fairly evaluate Beaty as his firing of Beaty would be in effect admitting his THIRD mistake in football alone!! And, if he has made three mistakes in evaluating football coaches, there is certainly no reason to think a fourth choice would have a better result.
kjayhawks last edited by
@Texas-Hawk-10 We should be set up very well for next year, returning a high number of guys on the two deep. It won’t matter and I could see Beaty out after a week 1 loss to Nicholls State.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by Crimsonorblue22
@Texas-Hawk-10 think we will see some other coaches leaving?
jaybate 1.0 last edited by jaybate 1.0
This is a quantized argument using the decision criterion I wrote about several days ago.
Beatty’s future SHOULD hinge ENTIRELY on whether or not he is net-increasing the total number of D1 grade scholarship athletes each year.
If yes, retain.
If no, fire.
Despite my doubt that he could continue net increases, our erstwhile fellow board rat has researched it and asserted that net-increase continues to occur.
Thus Zenger rightly stays the course.
Now I want to make two further points.
First, Zenger and Beatty certainly do NOT have to stand pat on assistants, or on who is game planning and play calling. They most definitely can improve organization and execution without firing the head coach, and without disrupting the existing recruiting that is the reason that Beatty is being retained. The staff effectiveness can be expanded and enhanced.
Second, even with all the losses, and player control issues, if Beatty can keep net increasing, then I vote for keeping him not just one but two years. Two years from now, if he were not at .500 that season, then would be the time for a change. Beatty deserves a chance to see if he can coach a team with D1 numbers. Two deep isn’t deep enough. You have to be three deep to afford to make an example of anyone to keep the players fully motivated.
Its pretty tough for Beatty to be a demanding perfectionist and task master, until he has enough numbers to be able to credibly threaten to run a few noncompliant players from time to time, without falling back into the Weis abyss of not enough guys on hand. Players understand Beatty’s hands are tied on discipline; that he has to suck up to keep them around to keep building his numbers. Players are human. Some will take advantage of him during this suck up period of the rebuilding phase and that sort of thing can be contagious. But once he gets his numbers up and can begin wielding the disciplinary stick with credibile authority, Beatty may produce a much more disciplined product.
This is rebuilding.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@jaybate-1.0 The discipline issue is a tough one and with the way Hasan Defense played today as well as last week, I genuinely hope Beaty makes an example of him and boots him from the team.
He had a stretch today where he nearly got into a fight with a WR, which drew a 15 yard penalty on Defense, and then had consecutive pass interference calls against him on the next two plays after the personal foul. Quite frankly, Defense shouldn’t have even been allowed to travel today because of that cheap shot he took on Mayfield last week.
If someone wants to argue to fire Beaty because of the lack of discipline and accountability for the past two weeks, I can support and agree with that.
Discipline and accountability have to be there from day 1, and this is an area that is becoming pretty clear that Beaty is failing at. That’s something to me at least could take precedence over the scholarship issue because it does deal directly with how recruits and opposing coaches view Kansas which is something should be very high in the list of important things.
If KU develops a reputation for being dirty players, that’s not a reputation that disappears easily even after multiple coaching changes.
This is a situation as you said where Zenger and Girod have to prioritize what is most important to them in rebuilding the team and it does appear getting the scholarship situation under control is their top priority at this stage and appear willing to sacrifice some disciplinary issues to get there.
@kjayhawks KU will be returning a lot of players on the 2 deep, but that’s about it if Beaty is fired. KU is legitimately somewhere between 50 and 55 recruited scholarship players before factoring in the 2018 recruits. Firing Beaty means KU would go through spring practice with that number of true scholarship players. I don’t know what the exact number is for walk on players awarded scholarships, but it’s likely around 15-20 guys, but those are the guys that wouldn’t get scholarships in normal circumstances.
@Crimsonorblue22 I would love to see Bowen get replaced because he just can’t scheme a defense or call a game to save his life. Joe DeForest is another guy I would love to see get replaced as well because our special teams was atrocious this year. Gabe Rui was a bright spot and KU appears to have a reliable kicker with good range, his 50 yarder was good with a lot to spare.
Those are the two most obvious needs on the coaching staff, but as long as you keep Tony Hull, I think everybody else is expendable on the staff.
JayHawkFanToo last edited by JayHawkFanToo
Wasn’t this season the one we were going to see progress? I seem to recall most posters, including me, had high hopes and 5 or eleven 6 wins seemed realistic based on the hype. I seem to recall poster(s) projecting the defensive line to be one of the better if not the best in the conference…so much for that.
In conference KU lost to WVU by 22, TTU by 46, was held scoreless against ISU and TCU by a combined 88-0, lost to KSU in the closest game of the conference schedule by 10 and then to the next worse team Baylor by 29,Texas by 25, Oklahoma by 38 and finished the season losing to OSU by 41. When you look at all the numbers, it is even worse than the most pessimistic projections.
Progress? I don’t see no stinking progress, pardon the grammar. What are the realistic expectations for next year? Definitely not 5 or 6 games, fool me once…I just don’t see winning any conference games and unless the pre-con schedule is loaded with Juco teams I don’t see running the table on those as Big 5 teams routinely do.
KU seems to be caught in a catch 22 situation, cannot fire Beaty and send the wrong message and should not keep Beaty when it appears progress is not being made. Didn’t decent prospects sign thinking the team would be better only to back off when it turned out to be the ol’, same ol’? Fans see it, prospects see it, other programs laugh at us…when is the administration going to remove the blinders and see it?
Seems to me a big executive decision is needed and Zenger is not the person to do it; in fact, an executive decision on Zenger himself should be forthcoming and under no circumstance he should be allowed to select yet another football coach. At least we can be thankful he will not be selecting a basketball coach and ruining a century of success.
nuleafjhawk last edited by
If I were a professional fisherman and I traveled the country fishing for a living and I was judged and paid by the number of fish I catch and the number of tournaments I win - and I had only caught fish (not won the tournament) 3 times out of 36, they would throw me out of the Bassmaster’s Association and take my wife and kids and put them somewhere where they could be fed and taken care of properly.
Beaty = BEATy
But we thought it meant BEAT someone, not be BEATen by everyone.
Maybe Hasan Defense is pals with a couple incoming recruits?
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
@Texas-Hawk-10 I’m confused. You said, “If someone wants to argue to fire Beaty because of the lack of discipline and accountability for the past two weeks, I can support and agree with that.” In your comment to start the thread, you agree with retaining him. Last week, after the game, you said the conduct of the players was indefensible and that pushed you to the other side of the “fire him” issue. Then you say keeping Beatty is the “right call.” Makes no sense to me. It’s either right or wrong.
This is the wrong call. On all levels. Beatty should have been fired.
The problem is that Zenger was surely lobbying for Beatty, because Zenger’s survival is likely tied to Beatty.
Further, I think that the analysis on scholarships overlooks the person the KU hires to take Beaty’s place. That person could attract talent, obviously depending on the individual. I think the analysis is akin to the person that holds on to the loser stock, believing too firmly in one’s initial decision making, that it has more room to run, and that cutting and running now leaves you in a deeper hole. The fear of being premature in ones decision paralyzes the decision making process.
I have for quite some time now sold a stock at the first time of trouble. It’s worked well for me. Have I missed out on some good runs? Sure. But it’s kept me from hanging on to losers too long. It’s a more conservative approach.
I think a more conservative, safer approach is necessary here. Here, as well, the more conservative, safer approach is also the most bold.
What we see from Beatty is a loser. A guy that has constructed a complete loser. Non-competitive games. I don’t want that guy. I want at winner. A guy that wins.
This time next season Beatty will be gone. And winning will be that much farther away.
I am a believer that counter intuitive anomalies allowed to persist usually imply bureaucratic gaming behind the scenes.
Hasan Defense looks like a counter intuitively persistent anomaly.
He should apparently already have been benched a couple times, but hasn’t been.
Nothing to see here!
Talk focuses on Beaty, but…
Defensive Coordinator Clint Bowen would seem to have some responsibility for Hasan Defense and the authority to sit him, or request he be left home. But no reputed action.
What if: I’m Beaty, and I suspect Bowen wants my job (because he got passed over), and I goofed and depended on Bowen for defensive recruiting. Bowen argues he hasn’t got a credible replacement for Hasan. Might I have to grin and bear the possibility Bowen were letting this happen with Hasan, and maybe even letting the defense suboptimize to put me on the hot seat thinking he might get my job, or be kept again for the recruits he has in the pipeline?
Or alternatively, what if Beaty were forcing Hasan on Bowen, so as to have grounds to s-can Bowen?
Hypothesis: maybe Zenger perceives the what if situations and Zenger and maybe Beaty probably already have a new “assistant HC” coming in to slot in above Bowen to take over calling defense and defensive recruiting, while Bowen is kept at DC til Bowens incoming recruits are assimilated and Bowen can be eased out ?
Or what if Zenger and Bowen are in league? And Zenger’s support of Beaty were fake?
But I bet Zenger regrets ever hiring Weis and using him as a broom about now, so CBernie could be absolutely sure there were no Perkins/Mangino/Gill era skeletons to haunt her. CBernie is gone leaving Zenger holding that bag.
Chancellors are supremely wily devils. Bureaucratic politics is all they do, when not “developing”, so they get good at it. She even created an attractive situation for her replacement which is crucial. No skeletons and Zenger can be the new Chancellor’s fall guy whenever the fire gets too hot. Zenger is everyone’s punching bag, but he appears to have a plan too. If he can survive long enough to get the numbers up, he can finally drive the bus, rather keep avoiding being thrown under it. Zenger appears little “c” catholic, ie, with a worldly inclusive view. He can tolerate smart and stupid, his order following and others counter playing, to stay on the job. He can do the dumb thing (not the wrong thing, he’s likely honest) his chancellor wants for her CYA to keep his job. Guys like that often prevail. It all comes down to recruiting numbers though. They have to keep vectoring up. Survive and advance. It’s worked for Zenger. It worked for Roy in easygate. It’s why so much of the world operates this way. Onward through both upward and downward.
“ad astra per aspera”
Just “satisfice” and survive.
But are we advancing?
Are we star bound, or is fault in them, or in us?
jayballer54 last edited by jayballer54
Well I went back and made notes from the seasons gams and stats & two things really jump out to a huge issue for this joke of a season.
They were # 1: - - Points off turnovers , Ku was outscored off points off turnovers 15-117 - we got 15 points off turnovers - -holy crap., - But that goes in hand with turnover ratio - - KU forced NINE - -nine turnovers the entire year - -we committed 26 - -so the ratio 9-26 - -speaks volumes.
I was actually surprised - we had 21 sacks on the year- -BUT we gave up 29 sacks.
We had 5 int’s and only 4 fumble recoveries, there is a really good starting point for this season that just plain sucked.
Actually Rushing defense for KU was ok - in 9 out of the 12 games: Southeast Missouri St ( 94 ) - - -Central Michigan ( 123 ) - - -Ohio ( 196 )- - - Iowa State ( 106 ) - - -TCU ( 191 )- - - Baylor ( 120 ) - - -Texas ( 113 ) - - -Oklahoma ( 157 ) - -& Oklahoma State ( 167 )
Now I realize that their passing may have help the rush defense some - BUT Southeast Missouri had ( 170 ) passing - - -Ohio ( 254 )- - - Iowa State ( 212 ) TCU ( 284 ) - - so those games was average anyways - -BUT again turnovers, turnovers, turnovers just killed us. AND plus we had a punter that shanked 1/2 of his punts were the opposition had really short fields to work against. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY