February 8: Post-game Roundup - KU vs West Virginia
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There’s a difference between heckling an NBA man and a college kid. Didn’t I read the antlers were banned from some games this year? Smart was wrong, and he should be punished and will be, but there’s just something wrong about an older man acting like that!
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No excuse for going after a fan in the stands. Smart should and will be suspended. That said, If the fan used a racial slur, he crossed the line and should also be punished. Which I think he will. If you read Smart’s lips…it sure appears that he heard something like that. One thing…something like that could have come out of the mouth of someone else in the crowed…not the Orr guy. Either way, I agree, a middle aged guy has no business constantly yelling stuff at a college player.
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Guys like “West Texas Weatherwax” have got serious problems. What grown man screams like that at a college player? While I find it just as bad when done at pro events, it is still different at a college venue. I will never understand the lack of civility.
Smart deserves a little rope here. He didn’t punch the guy. He didn’t hurt the guy. He pushed him. With guys at least … that should be no big deal. It is only a big deal because it was player vs. fan and crossed that line that athletes should not cross. Regardless of what the guy said, Smart’s reaction places Smart in jeopardy. He has much more to lose. There are a lot of guys in jail that reacted to an insult or what someone said. Smart should not have pushed the guy, period, because of the line between player and fans. That doesn’t mean if they were on the street, or in the parking lot, that the same rule would apply. But even in those situations, all of us have had to make judgments – is it worth it?
I, for one, can’t stand Marcus Smart on the court. But we should temper our judgments a bit and forgive the kid for his poor judgment. But we should also be curious about how guys like “West Texas Weatherwax” are dealt with. A ticket should not be a free pass to act like an idiot, particularly directing that idiocy at a college player.
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@Hawk8086 When I was growing up, I used to go to baseball games with my grandpa. There were dozens and dozens of old men that would ride the umps and the opposing players the entire game. Heck, they used to make it an art form. There was more than one time where a hitter for the other team would give a nasty stare with bat in hand at these hecklers. And that’s as far as it went. As long as there are public sporting events, there will be hecklers. The Tech guy is a loser, no doubt. But almost every arena across America has guys just like him. The problem was in the reaction - you simply don’t strike anyone at anytime. If he had done the same thing to an opposing player, he would’ve been called for a flagrant 2 foul, been thrown out of the game, and suspended automatically. This event will hopefully allow Marcus to calm down enough to where he can get control of his emotions again. He has been on a three week emotional outburst binge where his behavior has been progressively deteriorating, from chairs getting kicked, to storming off the court in complete frustration before the game is over. He has worked himself up into a level of anger and frustration in this 4 game losing streak that’s not good for him, not good for his team, and not good for his draft stock. He needs a couple games off.
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“Bench jocks” are nothing new. Even when KSTC played William Jewel in the late 60’s a fav chant was “Flip the Bird, (Cardinals) Flip the Bird.” This type of behavior by fans is & always has been part of it, but now it’s ALL on video or cell phone pics. The antlers at misery were the epitome of vulgarity & yes, have been at least temporarilty banished, or reprimanded. You just can’t get away with this krap any longer. And some people are absolutely ignorant to this Orwellian reality & act before they think. Yeah, Smart & OSU are in meltdown, but the coaching staff itself should have some control over their kid’s behavior. IMO, Ford has scored a complete & total zero. From Clark’s actions, to Smart’s antics, flopping included, that coaching staff has clearly relinquished itself to incompetence, in allowing the repeated behaviors we are discussing. Yeah, the fan’s a moron regardless, & he was right in Smart’s mug when he openly said something that pushed the detonation. But as coaches you are supposed to be teachers, mentors, & examples to young men also & the OSU staff certainly has some accountability for discipline here as well. Patterns of behavior are obvious signs that ALL of the participants in this instance should be held to higher standards of control. I’m not sure even at my age I could control my emotions if someone got in my face & said just the right thing at just the wrong time. Hell, none of us know what we do in a spontaneous instance of threat. Policemen & soldiers don’t even know for sure, but continual repetition & training is supposed to invoke the proper responses & that’s why it is done over, & over, & over. Audibly & visibly the entire OSU staff/Athletic Dept has some deficiencies & accountabilities in this matter as well as the subjects involved. These are just my opinions & observations, but as professional educators, there simply has to remain an element of control from those in charge, and this is repeated multiple instances in one season where institutional command & authority appears to be explicitly void.
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@HighEliteMajor I can’t stand the way Smart has flopped around this year, but it’s been entertaining for us. Seriously, I feel for him now. OSU has hit rock bottom. No matter what that dumba$$ grownup said, Smart can’t react! Yes he needs some counseling , but that dumba$$ fan could also use some too! I think back how shocked I was that Smart was coming back this year. I thought that was great for the Big 12 . How much have the rule changes effected Smarts frustration? I think they have confused Embiid. They confuse me.
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@ralster I appreciate your comments. Head in the sand? That means to hide from something, correct? Leaving it up to OSU to handle it is not avoiding the issue. I am more concerned with our teams play Monday Night. That is what is concerning to me. Something will probably happen to the two individuals involved, and it’s not my call. I do have personal feelings about the issue. This is not the format for it. In my opinion, I would much rather discuss KU Hoops, and agree and disagree with all the fine fans we have in this format. I’d much rather know how you feel about the upcoming game Monday Night? SInce you appear to like CAPS to get your point across, AINT NO OSTRICH IN ME!!
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@HighEliteMajor-“I, for one, can’t stand Marcus Smart on the court.”
Me either HEM, but mainly because of his dramatics displaying before us in flopping, & repeatedly throwing his arms in the air after getting stripped of the ball by a defender. The kid was fun to watch last season & is a decent, albeit overrated baller who really doesn’t shoot well enough to play in the L at present. But this year I can hardly stomach him from trying to mask his shortcomings with continual theatrics. Again I think his lack of improvement is on par with Nash, & is directly accountable to an inadequate coaching staff.
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@KansasComet I had 10 points in my comment, 9 of which were directly about KU basketball and yesterday’s game. You could choose to respond to one of those, or to expand on the match-up Monday night. I’m down for that.
As far as discussing Marcus Smart, he is relevant to Kansas basketball. Self recruited him. He has beaten us in our house. We have one more game to play with OSU this season (possibly two if we see them in the conference tournament), and his decline in play and attitude as an opponent make him worth discussing. On a larger scale, others have brought up the similarity to the events at Ames last year. KU still has to go play in Lubbock this year. What kind of enviroment will our players face down there? Is player security a concern? All of these reasons make it a relevant topic of conversation for KU hoops fans.
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@Hawk8086 you simply don’t strike anyone at anytime.
That should be the take-home message. I disagree with HighEliteMajor’s implication that a push is ok but a punch is not. The line has to be drawn at physical vs verbal. Otherwise you get an Untouchables escalation: push, punch, knife, gun, hospital, morgue.
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I’m pretty certain Marcus Smart is going to receive a big penalty for his shove. And he should. There needs to be clear boundaries in place, and first comes physical protection of both fans and players.
Now… on to that fan. If he did use the “N-word” that is unacceptable fan behavior and he should be permanently banned from future TT games. Once again, there needs to be clear boundaries set.
There is no other workplace situation where it is acceptable for anyone to taunt another individual with the “N-word.”
It shouldn’t stop at this… the B12 Head Office needs to (for once) be just a little bit proactive (in comparison to other conferences) and formalize stronger laws around fan behavior. They can levy penalties against schools for fan behavior, and in this case, if the allegations are correct, they need to penalize TT.
When behavior and actions go so far off base (as in this case) disciplinary action is the way to go! The B12 should mandate that every school put court side video cameras to review behavior and use it as evidence when problems occur. Warn the fans, so they are educated, then stick to the rules!
If I ever go to a game in AFH and catch a KU fan doing something like that, I will remove the fan from the game myself! Pay heed!
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@tundrahok Agreed. Obviously, you can’t strike anyone at anytime. I was referring to the specific case at hand…going after someone in the stands.
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How is it that Embiid’s biggest point total is only 18? Jaybate mentioned when will Wiggins get 40, but I think the stars could align for Embiid to get 30+ by working the paint and getting a ton of free throws and a few J’s.
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@icthawkfan316 you are right you did and they are much appreciated.
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@globaljaybird I agree completely. I see Nash and Smart, and think what they would have done here? Or Isaiah Austin? Things happen for a reason.
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@icthawkfan316 Oh, and excellent post game stuff above. I think your comments on Greene are right on, too. Greene seems to accepted a well defined role right now. Consistency. Something the kid can count on. When he pitched that ball in the stands yesterday and didn’t get hooked, it can only help his confidence.
And I can’t tell you how impressed I am with Black’s turnaround. Much needed. We have a group of finesse guys … four starters, and then some guys that are more physical – Black, Mason, Selden, Traylor.
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There is zero evidence that the fan in question called him by a racial slur. The closest any publication has come to imply is this one:
And you will have to take it in context as the article has been substantially edited since last night when they had it as fact. Even Dougie Glotlieb has confirmed that the “N” word was not used…and we all know how “unbiased” he can be.
Had that word been used, it would be first page news in every publication and web site in the country and you would have the Reverends Sharpton and Jackson calling for a boycott of Texas.
If I were a betting man, I would guess he said get up “effin” flopper, which for the record, a lot of people scream at the TV every time they seem him flop…to be fair, very few would say that to his face.
All Smart had to do is get up and walk away, this is what players are told and trained to do, and this is what players do regularly in hostile venues under similar circumstances.
Short of using the “N” word, which by all available evidence was not used, nothing he could have said compares to what the Antlers said regularly to opposing, particularly KU players, and they did it with impunity for years until they got a token temporary suspension this year, which really was no more than a slap in the wrist.
Smart (what an oxymoron) continued to rant until he had to be physically removed from the court by an assistant. I see this event as a logical progression of recent events including the flopping, the leaving of the court during a game, the kicking of the chair and the overall attitude. OSU personnel should have done something long before it got to this point and failed to do anything at all; they bear a good chunk of the blame, although the blame ultimately falls on Smart himself. Maybe this a desperate cry for help by a young man that appears to be seriously troubled.
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As per twitter from ESPN’s Goodman:
“Oklahoma State news conference slated for 5 pm CT, and sources told ESPN that Big 12 expected to make announcement prior to presser.”
And Blayne Beal TTU department’s assistant athletic director of media relations:
“Texas Tech is conducting a thorough investigation into the incident last night. Looking for facts - not speculation. Ask you for patience.”
I will guess that the Conference is going to send a strong message so nothing similar will happen again.
On a related note, Oregon staffers allege that ASU student spit on them:
No shoving in this incident.
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“There is zero evidence that the fan in question called him by a racial slur…”
It has been all over Sportscenter today. I’m not saying it is true… but what if it is? Do we condone that in our league?
It might have just been Marcus defending his actions… but then, why did he go after this one guy? The fan already had a reputation for heckling.
This will be investigated and hopefully the truth will come out.
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@JayHawkFanToo-I concur on most everything you say, including his ultimate responsibility for his actions. But quite clearly the OSU A Dept & coaching staff have dropped the ball & let down not only the University, the fans, & themselves, yet they have more importantly failed in their responsibilities as teachers, administrators, & disciplinarians to the student athlete(s) in this program. IMO they have also completely washed out as coaches with their inadequacies to develop talented young men into responsible & improved men & athletes. JMO, but the coaching staff must be accountable for the problems this program is enduring as well.
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Mason’s open court move…we are just scratching the surface with this young man. Mason does not have a fluid 3 point jumper, but he has knocked down a few clutch 3 pointers for us. He is going to be a joy to watch over the next few years. Definitely will be a reliable scorer.
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Perry seemed to be in good rhythm early…agreed. He did appear a bit cautious after his 2nd foul. He needs to come up with a move for the secondary defender. He will easily beat his man one on one, and then get his shot swatted by the secondary defender.
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While I would love to see Greene getting a few more minutes…the fact that Self said players like Greene, Frankamp, and Lucas get caught up in a numbers game is good enough for me. There are a lot of great players out there, that would have loved the opportunity to play for the University of Kansas. Their time will come. Cannot wait to see the day, when White, Greene, and Frankamp put on a 3 point exhibition.
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Selden is able to fly under the radar, but is just as talented as anyone we have on the team.
ICT, thanks for pointing out the obvious to me. You did make several great points, my mistake for not acknowledging them before.
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I’m with the group that Ford dropped the ball a long time ago. A situation like this was primed to go down because he didn’t have his thumb on Smart.
Ford needs to stand up and take some of the hit, too.
I remember a few times we’ve had discipline issues… like with the twins. Self went after them to clean up their act. His actions and policies helped curbed the twins and pointed them back on the right track.
About the only thing that is crystal clear on this issue is that Ford is sitting in the back seat!
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@globaljaybird
I agree that in the long run, it might end up hurting the program as a whole more that it will Smart. I can see recruit’s parents thinking twice about OSU in view of how they have handled the Smart situation.
If Smart would have come to KU, I can’t imagine Coach Self putting up with that.
Part of me thinks Smart is a punk and part of me feels sorry for him. Dude needs help…as LeBron would say.
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Right on!
It is a downer for our entire conference. March is going to come around and east coast media is loading their file footage now… I’m sure they will spin it against our entire league. In the least, they will spin it (constantly) against OSU. How fair is that to do to the entire university? What about players like Nash and Brown? So instead of showing pregame action of all of OSU’s weapons (like Nash and Brown) they will can the positive and just go negative… with long stories about Smart pushing fans.
Smart’s overall body of work at OSU will probably have a negative impact. Too bad. I’m not a Cowboy fan, but I am a B12 fan… not a good thing for our conference.
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@Wishawk Here’s what I meant by that. Lets say he drops down to the 2nd round. He will have cost himself a lot of money and people will say for years, not just KU fans, but all NCAA fans, will say, “remember Marcus Smart”. It could have been a knee injury, or just even a lack of production, but he is heading towards that. So our players will look at it and say wow, I can cost myself a lot of money by staying around and having something bad happen.
@Jayhawkfantoo Obviously fans everywhere act poorly, even at KU, although I can’t think of any current examples. Players do need to understand this even if they’re still young like Smart. However, when a fan’s heckling causes the loss of a star in the league, and I hear he may be kicked off the team, then that’s bad for the Big 12 and college hoops in general. Heck, it’s bad for us when we play them again. A weaker OSU means we don’t gain as much by beating them. That idiot fan hurt the league with his idiocy. Punish him.
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@KansasComet No worries. And I would much rather talk KU hoops and the Monday game, but sometimes things happen that are so big they demand our attention. Like a car wreck.
Speaking of the game Monday, I think we’re fine. As long as we’re not rattled by the crowd, I’m not too worried. I think it’s doubtful that Foster goes off like he did yesterday. Selden & Wiggins are too good to let that happen for very long. After that, they just don’t have many weapons. Even yesterday, Foster was the only one in double figures. I know they’re good enough that as a team we can’t afford to look past them, but as a fan about the only game I have metaphorically circled on the calendar is the Texas re-match. The rest of the way: TCU at home (yawn), the game at Lubbock holds my attention only because of yesterday’s events, home game against OU probably plays out much like yesterday’s game (not a rout, but very little doubt from start to finish), the game in Stillwater loses more luster the further the Cowboys sink, senior night for Black & Wesley has less sentiment involved than in years past, and the final game of the regular season in Morgantown, which could be our toughest test left (aside from Texas).
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Gheez… I’m scared about Monday! I don’t know what team will show up… the one that showed up at Baylor or the one that showed up for Texas! It better not be like the Texas game or we will get stomped!
This idea that “the B12 regular season championship always goes through AFH” is not always correct.
Sometimes I think I’d go with “the B12 regular season championship always goes through the Octagon!”
How many times in the last 10 years has the Purple Kitties helped us secure the B12 championship?! I don’t know but I’m sure it adds up quite a bit! Their mashing of Texas sure helped us out!
As long as we can win in Manhattan we always stand a good chance at winning the B12 title!
I just hope the right team shows up at the Sherronagon on Monday!
This game can also help our team confidence considerably!
Bruce Webber… no wonder they named a carburetor after him… he has the best choke in the league!
That quote needs to make it over to the quote thread!
Rock Chalk! Time to stomp the Kitties!
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@wissoxfan83
But…we still don’t know what the fan said; for all we know he could have said something that is said hundreds of times by hundreds of fans at any one game. At this time all we have is WAGs and conjectures.
Did you see my post above where an Oregon staffer was spit on by and ASU fan? Fad fans everywhere.
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You are correct… heck… he may have just made a flop comment. It has been reported that Smart was getting sensitive on all the attention he received for flopping. He did comment last week about it and made it sound like he was the victim in all of this…
He may have been victimized in his childhood or whatever… but in the game of college basketball, it is hard to look at Marcus Smart and see a victim!
Karma is always just around the corner… at the next turn…
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@drgnslayr The thing about it is, KSU is not the type of team that has consistently given us problems this season. They are not overly physical; even yesterday against Texas they were out-rebounded. They didn’t trap or press a lot to create turnovers. Texas did turn it over 18 times, but I watched the game and they were almost all in the half-court. They had Foster go off, and rode that momentum, while Texas had almost nothing go right until Isaiah Taylor got going a little bit in the second half.
KState will most likely play very good half-court defense which will keep us from pulling away too much too early. I still see us whipping them by double digits. Someone on one of the kusports articles said they thought everyone sounded sick. I guess if most of the team is under the weather we could come out and lay an egg. That’s really the only scenario that I see us losing. More likely, Bill uses this opportunity to once again stomp on the throat of Bruce Webber.
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I hope you are right. I want to have that optimism, too.
I could see us losing because of all the freshmen we have… going into that over-sized county fair building full of crazed purple fans and freaking out. Turning soft and throwing TOs everywhere.
This is a game I want Tharpe and Ellis to step up! Also… maybe Black. He doesn’t have B12 experience but he has plenty of D1 ball under his belt and with his age should be a man.
I’ve got us as 50/50 on a win!
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I am going to guess that the conference will split the bay, sort of speak. Smart will get a suspension no less than 3 games and possibly as long as the rest of the regular season; the TTU fan involved will be asked to not come back. It will also issue some guidelines for fans and like any good bureaucracy, it will appoint a panel to study the issue and come up with recommendations.
I heard rumors that he might be kicked out off the team, but I cannot imagine Travis Ford agreeing to that.
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I work with kids from the inner city. I don’t know where Marcus comes from, but I see reactions like that frequently from kids when provoked. He was provoked from that man who is old enough to know better. To see the reaction of the women around him just adds to my suspicions. And I in no way say Marcus should have shoved him no matter what was said. But I hold to it that the man should be punished in some way, even if it’s moving his seats up away from the court.
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Last night my initial reaction was the fan (Mr. Orr) is a douche nozzle. I recognized the type instantly, however, my wife (who hates Smart much more than I) was all over Smart’s actions.
Smart’s actions boarder on physical assault. The D-nozzle is just that. If Texas Tech wants to be represented by that type of character so be it, but Smart needs to be reprimanded. I hope the corrective actions can be taken care of internally and the Big12 doesn’t need to come in and make an example of him.
As much as I personally don’t care for Smart’s flopping, I really think when he plays well (against any team but KU) it’s good for the Big 12 and KU.
It’s too bad Smart’s actions had to detract from a great performance by Eljim. That’s the kind of pub. the conference needs.
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@icthawkfan316 i hope you are right about Monday’s game. It should be a good one, nonetheless.
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I’m just hoping we can get off to a great start, kstate jumped on Texas so fast. We can’t let them feel comfortable, especially at their house!
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When I was watching Texas-ksu, I saw ksu pack it in and Texas couldn’t get their big guys the ball. I’m thinking we will see the same thing?
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Tarik said it rather succintly in post game presser. Paraphrasing some here, but he said “We get the in state rivalry and we have been in some pretty hostile places. Iowa State was really hostile and Oklahoma was okay. We have been really tested and we are ready.”
Knowing he gets it as a new player in the conference says a lot and I am grateful for his leadership and enthusiasm he brings every game!
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“I am going to guess that the conference will split the bay, sort of speak. Smart will get a suspension no less than 3 games and possibly as long as the rest of the regular season; the TTU fan involved will be asked to not come back.”
You nailed that!
According to the investigation the fan called Smart a “piece of cr@p” and volunteered to not attend any more home games this year.
This will soon quiet down… until March Madness when the sports media world will be there to remind us all over again!
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@dylans You bring up a point I meant to make earlier. Smart’s actions didn’t border on assault…they did constitute assault. Now, recent reports seem to indicate that a racial slur was not used. You would think that one or more people could confirm what or wasn’t said. If a racial slur was not used…did Smart think he heard something? Or did he use that as an excuse? If so, crying wolf hurts all of us. Or did he not even make that claim? And yes, I think it is important what Orr said. That is a line that you don’t cross and it is worse than calling him a piece of crap.
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@RockChalkinTexas Tarik is one smart guy. I’ve liked him all along, glad to see some doubters jump on. I see him talking to guys on the bench too. He’s a Jayhawk!
