Yikes 71 fouls, 91 FT's attempted in a closed scrimmage between Ohio and Xavier

  • (REPOST of bayhawk’s post – migrated from old server)

    box score (real ncaa refs too)

  • Is this due to enforcement of the rules changes about handchecking and drawing charges?

  • Imagine what it would be if it were Xavier vs Cincinnati?

  • Refs suck any way you slice it. Whether they are or they aren’t calling fouls doesn’t change that. Basketball is the hardest sport to officiate in my opinion. I tend to side on letting them play because the more refs blow the whistle, the more they control the outcome by their many times random, and other times vindictive, whistles. And because you have a chunk of refs that are egomaniacs and see themselves as being the show It is very difficult to draw the line. This season could be a mess. Good thing this didn’t happen in 2011-12 when we had zero depth. Perhaps this could be an advantage for us this season.

    That said, the best example of poor refereeing was Justin Wesley. That poor guy would come in during 2011-12 and get two quick whistles just for being Justin Wesley. KU many times had less fouls, and he was the catch-up guy.

  • One of the best zebras IMHO either is retiring this season or did earlier this year-Ed Hightower. Always calm demeanor, not an easily excitable personality, and great with the young men he supervises as well as coaches. Not always right, but good man for the job. Only bad thing about Ed to me is his awful friggin’ wig. For those unfamiliar, it could appropriately be compared to the rug of James Brown on cbs NFL FB pregame. It just screams out “hey, check me-I’m hip!” Really?Agreed, tremendously difficult game to officiate, with or without a lid. LOL Also a disclaimer,“no malice intended” in a tribute to ole’ jb. Miss Oakville’s clever wit also-perhaps he is an alter ego? More food for thought men…

  • Yeah this is def. a major effect from the rules changes. I’m not sure if the refs went overboard (because they have to adjust to calling these plays now too) or not but the fact that this is getting leaked makes me worry that other refs across the country will see this and go whistle crazy the first month of the season. The NCAA does not want stuff like this getting leaked from a private scrimmage, but it’s going to be a tough transition for everyone I think.

  • It’s looking like a good year to have a deep bench…and good free throw shooters.

  • I hope Tarik has been working on his free throws. At 53%, he couldn’t even be on the floor at the end of close games last year at Memphis.

  • Rick Barnes is suggesting that most teams will switch to a zone to keep starters in the game. That would be sacrilegious at KU. I would love to see any team choose to play zone against us.

  • @globaljaybird Are we talking about the same Ed Hightower? I personally cannot stand Hightower’s theatrics and melodrama and I believe most BBall fans fee the same way. You should check this link:

    Ed Hightower

    Having said that, he was the referee for the '88 and '08 title games that KU won, so I can’t really dislike him too much.

  • @JayHawkFanToo Ha, I had to do a doubletake when I read global’s post too 🙂

  • Funny (not really), but that foul count and FT count reminds me of what people were saying when Bill Self got hired at KU: “Oh my god, here we go…Eddie Sutton ball–> walk-it-up, 55point grinder-type of games.” And they went on to lament the impending loss of Roy’s beautiful transition ball. If anything, Self has proven he can win almost any style (& that solid D can absolutely feed one helluva fast-break transition highlight), but I wonder if the coaches that espoused “tough” D, will have the more challenging adjustment with their teams. Personally, they should have left the dang rules alone. I dont want the NBA-style game.

  • I know Ed personally & he has been successful (and blessed) enough to be selected & call many NC games including our most recent championships, & I would be thrilled to get just one more before he rides into the sunset. He not only is quite fond of our program, but also was a personal friend of the Big Dipper, so that’s good enough for me guys. All that schpiel said, the rug is still just AWFUL!

  • Oh man… I’m just thinking about “Roy ball” and how his ball works with the new rules. My guess is the game will be slowed down so much his guys won’t be able to keep the momentum up to push the ball. But if they are able to push it, they shouldn’t settle for anything less than a dunk! Between the mini circle directly under the basket and the new rules giving the advantage to the driver, it seems that open court basketball could be a splash hit, if teams are able to force pace off so many dead balls due to fouls.

  • Nothing worse then when the referees decide the game. Now it’s bound to happen far more often. They could call holding or hitting the receiver more than 5 yards from the line of scrimmage on just about every play in the NFL. The referees are going to need to learn when or not to call the foul just as the refs do in football. Any rule that is only called in rare circumstances, such as palming, should either be enforced or changed. If enforcing the rule every time hinders the game then it should probably be removed from the refs handbook.

  • 71 fouls and 91 FTs. I want to look at these numbers, go deeper, and figure out how much time this adds to a game.

    The average number of fouls per team called last year was around 17 to 18 per game. The lowest whistled team was Michigan at 12.7 fouls per game (fpg). The highest was Morehead State with 24.9 fpg.

    I’m going to play out a fake game here. Now last season Xavier averaged 17.4 fpg and Ohio 19.7 fpg. Let’s say in this fake game played last year under the old rules that 30% of the pre bonus fouls (28) were in the act of shooting. Of those shooting fouls, I’ll say the fouled player made 50% of the attempted shots in which they were fouled on. (28 x 0.3 = 8.4 x 0.5 = 4.2 + [4.2 x 2] = 12.6 FTs) . So that’s 13(rounding up from 12.6) pre bonus FTs.

    Now in the 1and1 again I’ll use clips of 30% and 50%. (Note: Xavier had 17 fpg last season which means they only committed 3 1and1 fouls in my fake game. Thus making it a total of 9 1and1 fouls.) Of the 1and1 FTs I’ll use a 65% both team avg. on the first shots leading to second shots. (9 x 0.3 = 2.7 shooting fouls and 6.3 non-shooting fouls. 2.7 x .5 = 1.35 +2.7 = 4.05 + [[6.3 x 0.65] x 2] + 2.205 = 14.445) So in this game last year they would have had 14 (rounding down) FTs in the 1and1.

    Add the pre bonus with the 1and1 and we get 27 FTs total in this game.

    Now with an average of 30 seconds to shoot the first FT and 15 seconds to shoot the second FTs we can figure out how much time is wasted with FTs. (8.4 + 9 = 17.4 total first FTs) (4.2 + 1.35 + 4.095 = 9.645 total second FTs)

    17.4 x 30 / 60 = 8.7 or 9 minutes wasted with the first FTs. 9.645 x 15 / 60 = 2.4 or 2 1/2 minutes wasted with second FTs.

    An estimated 11 minutes spent this fake game just shooting FTs.

    Now if I use the same math as that fake game and apply it to the number of fouls committed in this REAL played game this year using the new rules (hand check, block vs. charge) let us see what we come up with…

    Same number for pre bonus FTs. Add 3 more fouls in the 1and1s and we get 19.26 FTs this time around. Then with the double bonus FTs we get 31 more fouls or 62 FTs. This all totals out to be 93.86 FTs. That’s pretty close to the actual number of fouls committed in the game. I’ll use my numbers since I can guess first and second FTAs.

    51.4 first FTAs and 42.46 second FTAs.

    51.4 x 30 / 60 = 25.7 minutes. 42.46 x 15 / 60 = 10.615 minutes This all equals out to be 36.315 minutes spent at the FT line!!! Last seasons fake game only had 11 minutes. So they’ve managed to triple the time spent not running the clock.

    In conclusion: My main goal was to see how much time was spent shooting FTs. If this kind of whistle blowing is going to occur this season we might as well forget about catching any of our Big Monday games!!

    I’m sure our friend JayBate would hypothesize that the new rules were installed by the Shoe Company Complex, ESPN/ABC/CBS basketballopoly, and the Communist USS’NCAA’R so they all can increase the number of TV timeouts which in turn increases their bank accounts thus increasing their power over us.

    <note: math can be wrong. All % are estimations.>

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