Same old Dirty laundry
DoubleDD Banned last edited by
Well it seems we are back to the topic of threes versus and inside game. Which do you hang your hat on? What is a good balance of shooting the three? Do we pound it inside no matter what?
These are all valid points. And the issue will rage on for the rest of the season I’m sure. Feeling the pulse of Jayhawk nation, I’m getting the sense of a yearning for an inside game of yesteryear. A nervousness is taking old and filling the minds of what if’s.
We have the old-timers (no disrespect) that would like the game played from the old tried and true scheme. Come down the court and pound that ball inside no matter what. The belief is you win by forcing your will on the other team. You only shot the three when the possession clock is running out, but you’re always looking to pound the ball inside.
A new age Jayhawk wants a run and jump scheme. They have embraced the 3 point shot as just part of the game. A weapon to be used at will. They don’t sweat the inside game as a must, to win games. Oh they don’t mind a good interior game. It’s just not the end of the day if it doesn’t play out on the court. To them a midrange jumper is just as good as any shot on the court.
The tried and true fans the most loyal of fans to HCBS. They too like the old tried and true, yet they don’t question if HCBS tweaks the game plan. They trust in Coach no matter what. If anything happens on the court then it was by design of what Coach wanted to do. They lean towards strong defense and pounding the ball inside as this is what Coach is known for. They are a little troubled by this 4 guard approach , and living by the three. Yet they are in a wait and see mode. As they don’t question Coach and his methods.
Then there’re the fickle KU fans. They just can’t be happy. They seek perfection not really knowing what perfection is. Shoot to many threes and they complain about no inside game. Pound the ball inside and they complain about passing up on clearly open shots from three land. IF a player lays in, they should have dunked it. If a player goes to hard to the bucket they scream you should’ve kicked it out. They do a lot of wishing.
At the end of day we all fit into these types of fans.
I for one says let the three fly, as it opens up the paint.
It’s much more sophisticated than just inside vs. outside. How do we know? Because everyone scores inside and outside and everyone distributes shots variously between inside and outside. So what’s going on?
Most teams are playing 3 out 2 in with two strings. Most that play 4-1 do so with two strings.
In strategy, there really is just one school of thought. Shape the battlefield to the advantage of the way of fighting that favors you most and fight the way that favors your most in surprising ways.
Self has figured out that 4 perimeter scoring threats and a committee-post tend statistically to beat 3 perimeter threats and an inside guy forced to play outside plus reliance on a single dominant post.
Self then implements it in surprising ways based on what the opponent wants to do.
He knew Jerod wanted to score through his post, so Self fouled Travis so much that most of his shots missed and he shot two FTs instead of short treys.
Then Self reasoned: I want lots of long and short treys and we can’t lose. Jerod sagged and denied KU the paint. Self countered with long treys.
But Self has learned that in a match of 3-2 vs 3-2 offenses, the team scoring inside has the big statistical edge.
So Self goes 4-1 vs 3-2 if he is denied the inside, and statistical tendency favors him so long as his centers have enough fouls to give and are strong enough to deny the short Trey and make them shoot 2-shot fouls.
And it took him a few years to figure it out and adjust the recruiting mix.
It’s the thing to do when the apparent big man embargo denies you OAD/5-star bigs and PGs.
Recruit what they give you and scheme to it.
It took awhile to figure how to scheme to it.
He had to get the perimeter scorers that could also board.
He had to big man depth of 4 at one post.
He had to scheme 4-1 against 3-2 teams.
I increasingly think this is the operant logic favoring Small Ball so far. It can and will be countered. But it hunts right now.
This is only superficially about inside vs outside.
It’s really about unbalanced line right.
It’s about 4 scorers on the perimeter that can shoot the long Trey, or drive the short trey pitted against 3 and a big that can’t do either being forced outside.
Team’s with a great stretch 4 will be hard to beat this way, but stretch 4s are few and they are even harder to beat in a 3-2 set.
Bwag last edited by Bwag
so Self fouled Travis
Self countered with long treys.
I rechecked the stat sheet, didn’t see any Self fouls or made 3’s.
BShark last edited by
Lulufulu last edited by
I love reading everyones posts on college ball gaming and scheming. Stuff is food for my Crimson and Blue soul!
Self adjusting his game plans per the opponent this year is basically magic, bunny out of a hat type stuff. He really hasnt done that historically. Now he has the team to do it. Those guys just need to be able to make their own Free Bees at > 70% as a team. Bragg, Lando, Doka,Coleby need to at least work up to breaking even on defensive boarding with the other team too.
That happens, we will be very hard to take down in late March.
Lulufulu last edited by
Aw c’mon you know exactly what I mean. He coached his guys to do what they did and they were good enough to execute the winning strategy.
You don’t seriously think the players invent this, do you?
Bwag last edited by
@jaybate-1.0 I know what you meant and really was just tweaking your nose!
However, I do think you sometimes ascribe too much advanced planning/scheming and control to Self i.e. To quote DD: “if anything happens on the court then it was by design of the coach”.
I will grant you that Self does adjust and try to find ways to play the hand he’s dealt and even beyond that analogy, works to influence the hand he’s dealt as every coach should.
In particular, I don’t ascribe our lack of inside game and the 4-1 line up as part a multi year grand master plan to incrementally reduce the strength of our bigs so he could move to a 4 man perimeter dominated game. Your analysis often lends itself to ascribing this level of control and planning to him as I read you.
Other than that, I enjoy your analysis and your strategy discussions. I see it as innovation, often reluctantly pursued versus master-planned.
Bwag last edited by
DoubleDD Banned last edited by DoubleDD
You know as well as any body the game of basketball goes through changes. Whether by rule changes, coaching schemes, or the players themselves. Most of the time we fans and such don’t even know the change has happened, until someone with knowledge and understanding points it out to us.
The four and 1 has been a long time and coming. Where it began I’m not sure, but it’s been showing us glimpses of how the game is changing. As I type I’m trying to remember the first clue in my own thinking. Maybe it was Jordan and the Bulls in the triangle offense?? I don’t know. However the days of just pounding the ball inside are coming to a close.
I too think Coach is a genesis, yet he didn’t create nor discover this movement that has been taking place in Basketball. The mayor in Iowa St. was way ahead of coach on this. not because he was smarter or a better coach. It was he needed a way to compete with KU and Coach. It’s only been here recently that Coach hasn’t being getting the bigs that he requires to run his system. Which just for the record I still think Coach run his high/low with the current roster if he so desired. He just stumbled onto a truth and instead of ignoring it, he’s beginning to embrace it.
As history has shown change usually starts at the bottom. There is no need for the big dogs to change when they can win at will with the tried and true. It’s only after continued failure that one realizes that change is needed. History has always shown grab the biggest and toughest dudes to roam the paint and you can win 75 to 55 on most nights. Just like Novocain just keep pounding the ball inside and the opponent will fold his tent.
For years and decades the big dogs could live by this form of play. Yet changes come and they go. Players don’t see the 3 as fools gold. They spend hours and nights in their driveways and shady gyms pounding the ball from outside. Perfecting their shot. Learning to use their bodies when they don’t have the ball in their hands. It’s not breed into them that the ball most go inside at all cost. The 6’5 and 6’7 isn’t thinking go into the trees and muscle. Their thinking I’ll make the trees come to me.
Yet I digress. The real movement of the 4 and 1 is that small schools who can’t recruit the typical bigs, have discovered the real value in a stretch four as you called it. This revelation has opened the doors for the lower end schools to recruit and have success on the big time stage. Let this sink in. Big time upsets happen every year in College basketball, and not so much in football. Why is that? Well in Basketball you only need five players to play the game. So if they can grab I few studs and especially a stretch four now they are on the same playing level as the big dogs for the most part.
In closing my personal opinion is, "For the Big dogs to continue to eat they need to adapt or shoot the three more. As they can still out recruit the small schools for big guards that can run, jump, handle the ball, and shoot the three. In our case as KU fans I think Coach is doing both. Look at all his recruits from the guard positions. They can handle the ball, get to the rack , and shoot the three on a respectable level. Not to mention he stills recruits the prize big like a Doka when he cans, however keeping an open mind for players like Bragg who can stretch the floor.
Good read. Thx.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
Hey, if Bragg was playing like Sr year Ellis, alongside last season’s Lucas, does anybody still think we’d be playing 4+1? Remember SelfhimBill was forced to go 4+1.
Dont forget the personnel part of the equation: If we had Cole + TRob, wouldnt any coach play 3+2? Or the Morris Twins? Or Embiid + TRob.
Bigman dominance is brutal. Coach K rode that to a NC. The lack of bigman dominance has led to all sorts of fiddling and masking and foul-mgmt ploys by Selfster…
I like this version of 4+1, but it is the fallback option, now getting polished up. Self probably told Bragg and Lucas “Your draft stock is slipping.” That ought to light a fire under their…
Maybe he should tell Bragg: you get 10rbds per game, you can shoot as many 3s as you want.
If Bragg had handles…