Mickelson vs. Withey
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No one could see Jeff with her either when he was touring Africa with AIA. Guys take awhile to find the right scent to give off. A wad of money contributes to it, but is not essential.
I know because I started unable to attract and then found the magic.
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@jaybate-1.0 still have it?
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Maybe a little.
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@HighEliteMajor Hunter passes my eye test when I see a “Hunter Face” similar to a “Withey Face”
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@curmudgeonjhwk good one!
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The comments regarding Withey not being a sure thing bring back some memories there – good point. The parallels between the two are certainly striking. Personally, I think if Mick did get 15-18 per game, and Self committed to him, we’d have a very fine rotation player that seems to meld well with the strengths and needs of this team.
The “easy button” thing seems way obvious here.
I would toss this in regarding Mickelson, his field goal percentage at the rim this season at the rim is 75%, which is consistent with his at the rim percentage of 70% last season., and which is consistent with this field goal percentage at the rim his sophomore season at Arkansas – three season at 70% or more. Seems to be another positive element. His freshman season he was at 59%.
Finally, I think that the production over a full season is a valid question. But the times he’s played more minutes, and his time against better opponents, doesn’t seem contrary to our current evidence. Further, the WUGs performance provided the informational foundation to what we’re seeing now.
Again, seems like a perfect fit in our post rotation.
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@jaybate-1.0 "Withey wasn’t cool enough either for a long time.
Withey wasnt pretty.
Hunter is peculiar, as they used to say.
Therefore Hunter has to be quite a bit better to play."
I think you’re on to something with this…makes sense to me.
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@jaybate-1.0 That “magic” of which you speak is a very elusive element. Some appear to be born with it. The wad of money can indeed become a huge factor. Power of position, too. Take D. Trump, for example. Why else would an attractive woman named Ivanka wish to snuggle close? (Or did I get that last sentence in reverse order?) Shucks, if Hunter Mick eventually should make it bigtime, become a multimillionaire starter in the League, Withey might lose his current squeeze to a younger, richer, more powerful man!
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They say that money is the best aphrodisiac…of course, I have no clue who “they” are. probably wealthy people… :d
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To me women are not like men and are drawn to someone for many different reasons. Men are kind of visual.
It is best to be really funny, or really good looking, or have power, or some prestige or special talent which would lead to money. Money alone I do not think is only it.
You want them to be at least somewhat physically attracted to you though for the best experience.
If you can put together any combination of those qualities, watch out, and I am envious!
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@KUSTEVE – @jaybate-1.0 is always on to something. Like the chess master thinking 46 moves ahead.
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@HighEliteMajor It certainly would answer several questions I’ve had about Hunter’s usage.
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@jaybate-1.0 So what you’re saying is, Self is and always will be a bro through and through. A 50-something, politically correct bro, but still a bro.
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@KUSTEVE Personally, I think Traylor has played over Mick because Self has held out this false hope that Perry will be a back to the basket scorer. Thus Mick up top didn’t make a lot of sense. Even last week Self was referring to Ellis needing to play bigger – as if it is magically going to happen. Self knows better.
Another interesting item – two falls ago, Self specifically said that Mick and Ellis did not match up well together on the floor because they were a lot alike, and he referenced needing a physical presence to pair with Ellis (presumably a nice way of referring to Ellis relative softness).
I think that prejudgment prejudiced Self’s view of Mick last season.
Further, I think Self obsesses on certain details. The paralysis by analysis. Overthinking some things while ignoring the “net” contribution. That could have doomed Mick early because there might have been some “micro” item that Self just really didn’t like.
@jaybate-1.0’s “peculiar” theory is as good as any.
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@HighEliteMajor Traylor, Lucas, and Mickelson each bring a different primary skill to the table. Jamari can play away from the basket on both ends and is the best all around defender of the three. Lucas is far and away the best rebounder of the three and a big body to plant in the paint. Mickelson is the best scorer and shot blocker of the three, but he also has the slowest feet of the three and struggles to guard more than 5’ out from the basket.
This isn’t Self over analyzing the situation. It’s about 3 guys who have 3 different skill sets, but none are are so much better than the others that they have to play and how those 3 compliment the other 4 starters. Mason can get to the rim and free throw line whenever he wants to, Wayne Selden has become a lights out shooter and able to score in whatever way he wants, and Perry Ellis has a good to great mid range game that stretches defenses, and Graham is becoming a very good facilitator for this offense.
None of them are great defenders or rebounders though and that’s why Traylor and Lucas have always gotten the nod over Mickelson. They each fill a void better than Mickelson can. When did we see Mickelson step up last year? AFTER Perry got hurt and KU have a major scoring void down low.
If Self decides at some point that he can’t handle the current offense and reverts back to running the high-low in spite of the lack of personnel to run it well, Mickelson is the best choice, but then KU gives up a huge advantage on the glass and on defense. Mickelson is a good player who just happens to be a really bad fit for the current make up of the KU roster and probably would’ve been better serves to transfer elsewhere.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Sorry, I have to disagree. I just think you are flat wrong. Not surprising, I bet.
Your post is the “over analysis”. The “micro”. When you get into playing a largely inferior player major minutes because he is more effective against a three quarter deny, as Self did, you are over thinking it. When you play Lucas because he is supposedly the better rebounder, or Traylor because he switches better, or insisting you can’t beat Harvard at home unless Lucas defends the Crimson’s post player – you miss the forest for the trees (And I’m referring to large blocks of P.T., not end-game situations, or very special circumstances).
It’s called over-thinking it. It’s “paralysis by analysis.”
Traylor and Lucas are simply inferior players. You know that. You’ve already conceded in past posts that Mickelson is a better all around player than Lucas. I haven’t seen that concession about Traylor yet. But Traylor’s worse than Lucas. You said “I"m not disagreeing about Mickelson being the better overall player, but Landen Lucas is currently KU’s best rebounder.” You also acknowledged that “the evidence from Korea [was] that Mickelson compliments Ellis much better that Traylor or Lucas does.”
Do you see what you have said there? Ellis is our primary four. 25-30 minutes per game. You said Mickelson is the better compliment. Hit the “easy button.” Since Mick compliments him the best, he’s the best option there, compared to Traylor or Lucas. Easy.
In your post above, you said, Mickelson “is a really bad fit for the current make up of the KU roster.” That just doesn’t square with your previous posts, particularly in being the best compliment for Ellis. I don’t understand the comment at all, assuming you saw our last game.
Mick’s PER is 23.7. Lucas’ is 17.9. and Traylor is 15.0. Supposedly the latter two had been playing good this season (for them). That’s true, because Lucas had a PER last season of 13.7 and Traylor 12.7. Mickelson in his limited time last season? 22.5. All just fyi.
About three weeks ago you were defending Traylor against Bragg, as a number of others were. I assume you are on board now with Bragg.
Just try opening your mind to this “play the best player” thing. Self agrees. He said so. I just hope he follows his own advice.
I’m not crowning Mick as the savior, just the best fit; for 15-18 minutes per game. Rim protection. A nice touch on his shot. Good stuff.
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@HighEliteMajor Perhaps you don’t understand because you read wrong. You’re basing your argument on something I did not say or imply. I never said Mickelson complimented Ellis (that’s you injecting your own opinion), nor did I imply it. What I said was that Mickelson is the best scorer of out of himself, Lucas, and Traylor. Hunter Mickelson has made his best contributions when Perry Ellis has been injured, such as last season.
Self sees the line up as puzzle pieces and scoring from the 5 is not his priority when looking at who to fit in the puzzle. His priority from the 5 is rebounding and defense. Mickelson is the worst rebounder on the team considering his size and he is a below average defender. If Mickelson is more than a few feet away from the basket, he gets blown by and scored on pretty easily.
Your projecting your own personal priorities into the matter and neglecting what Self actually values and you know Self values defense over everything.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said:
[Self’s] priority from the 5 is rebounding and defense.
Check out this article from KUSports: http://www2.kusports.com/weblogs/smithology/2015/dec/18/kansas-defense-not-living-up-to-bill-sel/
In particular this sentence:
So far this season, only Mickelson, Diallo, Graham and Mason have shown consistent ability to create havoc defensively.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 No, i read absolutely correct.
The statements I put in quote are your words. I just went to a prior thread to get them.
Look at the Statistical Nightmare thread.
There you said exactly what I quoted. You said “I"m not disagreeing about Mickelson being the better overall player, but Landen Lucas is currently KU’s best rebounder.” You also acknowledged that “the evidence from Korea [was] that Mickelson compliments Ellis much better that Traylor or Lucas does.”
You also said, comparing Lucas, Traylor, Mick, that, “Hunter is probably the best overall player of the 3 …”
My purpose of this thread was to compare Mickelson to Withey. Withey had problems guarding on the perimeter just like Mickelson. And actually, as my statistical comparison between the two shows, they are actually quite similar. We played an entire season with Withey on the floor for 30 minutes per game, and we got to the national championship team. That team had TRob. This team, though, has a much, much better collection of perimeter players.
I truly do not understand your defense comment at all. You are apparently seeing defense in just one tunnel – i.e., when one is away from the basket. There are many, many more elements to defensive basketball that need to be considered.
@ParisHawk cites a link on Mick being one that is creating defensive havoc. I used the word “disruptive” in my post game thread after Oregon St. While he blocks shots at roughly the rate as Withey, he also gets a high rate of steals – 2.4 per 40 vs. 1.0 for Withey. That’s a possession and a half per game. Did you also see his tip aways and how he contests the ball (vs. Holy Cross especially). That’s part of defense.
When you compare Mick to Traylor, Mick has 6 steals in 88 minutes, Traylor (the faster supposed energy guy) just 3 in 127 minutes. And Lucas, he has just 1 in 97 minutes. That’s part of defense.
And that doesn’t even touch on blocked shots, which are clearly an important defensive stat; and for this team (rim protection) perhaps a much more important statistic. Mick is much better than the others. Mick 13 blocks in 88 minutes. Traylor 5 in 127 minutes. And Lucas, just 1 in 127. Mick changes shots, and Mick effects other drivers to the hoop. Further, he has length to block shots if defenders are past him a bit. That’s part of defense.
How do folks not see this? Mick is a better overall defender than either Lucas or Traylor. And he fits perfectly with this team.
If Self values defense over everything, why did he play Lucas based on his alleged ability against a 3/4 deny on the post? I laugh at that because Lucas can’t score in the post as @ralster has pointed out very well in the past.
And that ties into Self’s comment yesterday – he admitted that he was trying to make this team into something it wasn’t/isn’t. Making a lineup decision based on that, hoping we can get post scoring, is as you said: Delusional (and I’m going to give you props for that in another thread).
Also, to my Bragg reference, you also said just 30 days ago that “Bragg isn’t ready to contribute at KU yet.”, which was utter nonsense. You also said, “Bragg isn’t physically ready yet and I called that during Korea as well.” This all about 30 days ago. At that time, you told me, “Your bias against Traylor and Lucas is clouding your judgement about what Bragg has actually done so far in Korea and the first 2 games.” You then stated that not all 5 star players are ready right away. All part of your and @Crimsonorblue22’s “too skinny” thing with Bragg.
My approach is to assess a kid’s talents and what he brings to the floor, and compare to his competition for playing time. The guy was and is ready to play big minutes. But I have qualified that with the fact that he is a freshman, and we have to expect the growing pains. I’ve advocated for Bragg having big minutes from the start. I think he slots very nicely in as the first big off the bench. He’s the best post player right now behind Ellis, and as I’ve said in other posts, he could surpass Ellis even this season.
I come back to the Bragg thing because you did not address it – but also because my approach to Mickelson is the same with Bragg. I assess a kid’s talents, what he brings to the floor, and compare that to his competition for playing time. Who gives us the better “net” on the floor?
All I ask is that you consider the value of committing to and just playing the best overall player. Why does Self pare down his rotation? it’s to define roles and play the best players.
You’ve said Mick is the best player of the three. You’ve said that he best compliments Ellis of the three. You are right on both counts.
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Good discussion by all. The complexity of Lucas vs Traylor vs Mickelson vs Bragg vs Diallo simply exists as a fact because none of those guys are alike. Some are raw, some have most of their potential ahead of them, physically and talent developmentally…while others are seemingly plateaued in their basketball development (Lucas and Traylor).
Let’s make this a purely basketball analytical discussion, and we need to find THE BEST compliment to Ellis. That would be Bragg and Mickelson, with some mpg by Jamari, and only spot-matchup-physical-bang-mpg by Lucas.
Let’s not make this about a decision about “heart”, because I gave the heart & perseverance award to Jamari Traylor long ago. And I’d give one to Wayne Selden over BMac also, but that’s another topic.
@HighEliteMajor 's post is a great argument for Mickelson (and Bragg). It’s no coincidence those 2 helped save KU’s bacon vs OregState. Self didn’t want to lose to OregState…in KC, Mizzou…, so we see who he went with. That isn’t set in stone, as it sent a msg to those who remained sidelined. As a senior, Jamari Traylor cannot miss garbage putbacks. That is something that supposed ‘garbage’ man Darnell Jackson never did. He was a starter on Self’s best team for a reason. Several reasons. Lucas, bless his heart, tries with everything he has, post moves, post hi-low seal-offs, then receives the pass…and either stone-hands-it, or flat misses the bunny.
Bragg is already an above-avg hi-low passer–as a frosh. He just needs a finisher down low. I’ll take Mickelson over Lucas down low. If its vs small-ball opponent, then Ellis could has the advantage.
(I’m just salivating on the thought of Bragg + Diallo, along with a healthy 270lb Coleby for next season…if we are so lucky to keep Bragg and Diallo)
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The perfect 6’8 post player: If you could put Ellis’ skillset into Traylor’s physique and aggressive mindset…
Saw Simmons (LSU) and Goodwin (Memphis) play the other day, and while both were KU targets, we see that such guys demand mpg by the mere presence of their skillset. While at KU, there was a plethora of bigs, coupled with a variable tendency by Self to reward upperclassmen…thus an easy-to-see logjam in the post. Those kids, thus, were not a “fit” for KU’s roster, although they may have functioned on the hardwood better than half of KU’s current post players.
Its about what makes Self’s plays run better, execute better…but then is it? (To Self himself…?)
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@HighEliteMajor Thanks for informing that my opinion of players are not allowed to evolve or change despite new evidence added to the equation. I’ll keep in mind that I can’t change my mind on a player in the future.
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Of course I didn’t say that. You said one thing, and had said something else previously (or at least I felt that the positions were significantly conflicted) thus I pointed it out. I don’t understand your response here. So part of the discussion should not be pointing out inconsistent statements? Sorry, but if I see an inconsistency like that, and I actually remember it, I’ll point it out.
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@HighEliteMajor My opinion on the mattered has changed because there is more evidence to factor in now. I can’t help you if that’s a concept you don’t grasp or willfully choose to ignore.
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@HighEliteMajor Yep
