wrwlumpy last edited by
I cringed twice during the Championship game when Jamari telegraphed two intercepted passes during the old standby Norman Dale era weave similar to the Picket Fence. Mickelson did not get put in to substitute by Captain Hook.
Watching the whole tournament again, and hearing the announcers talk about the great screens of Jamari and about being a guy who knows his role on the team, I found two moments in the Championship game of him doing what he does best - set powerful, legal, Hard picks.
Here are two examples - In the first picture, he wall’s off the footer to allow Perry his only dunk. In the second, he sets a high screen which allows Devonte to penetrate to his left and score on his diving Circus shot.
wrwlumpy last edited by
Mick’s thin frame doesn’t allow him to do this as well and Lucas can, but is a step slower. You have a more “true Center” type player who would never be able to run the weave. Diallo will be a faster, shot blocking Center, but To the anti’s that hate Bill allowing Jamari his minutes, understand what Self wants and why he “Stubbornly” plays him.
@wrwlumpy The word is that diallo practices very hard and at full speed. self loves that and rewards playing time to those players. If diallo does the basics well (moves his feet on d and stays with his man, picks up switches quickly, boxes out and passes out to the open man when he is double- teamed on offense) he will see more and more time as the season progresses because of his rim protection and rebounding. Heck he may even be able to score down low. Self wants a good big man badly, it fits into his scheme, and so it may mean less minutes to JamLucTer
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
Somehow I believe that the argument against Traylor’s minutes is over when we cite his significant attribute as setting “legal picks.” I do appreciate the attempt to bring rationality to irrationality, but it would seem that we’re really stretching it.
How many times last season did Traylor get called for illegal screens? It was nearly a once a game ritual in conference play, as I recall.
Just an example, but at 15:55 of the second half, just before the seal by Traylor on Ellis dunk that you show above, watch Traylor’s moving screen. He just didn’t get called for it.
I would also add that this “thin” think regarding Mickelson is astoundingly misguided. So, because he is supposedly thinner, he can’t set screens “as well”? Actually, Mickelson outweighs Traylor by 25 pounds, listed only 2 inches taller (probably 3-4 inches taller of course). Traylor is not a big guy at all. It’s a Traylor-myth so to speak.
Since you cited Mickelson, I would refer you back to Mickelson’s performance in the WUG. He actually set a screen, and then scored on a pass to the basketball. A feat that Traylor has always struggled with. Mickelson so outperformed Traylor in the WUG, it was a knock-out. No complaints about Mick’s screens, and certainly not his energy.
And the second example you cite, by the way, was a set play, where there was a double “wall” screen at the top by Ellis/Traylor. I cited it in a post last night on another thread.
I do appreciate your effort – but why is it that the anti-real talent folks that support Traylor have had to ignore statistics and even the “eye test” and have to rely upon the setting screens thing that he failed at regularly over the last two seasons.
There is no doubt that Traylor does some good things. But worthiness for playing time should be a weight of the evidence thing – what is the total product.
The total product is vastly inferior. If the discussion point is screens, it’s over.
And by the way, someone said early on something to the effect of – it’s just like Ned Yost batting Escobar leadoff or something silly like that. No, Escobar was productive. He hit the ball. Escobar is an all star level player.
The real parallel is that it would have been like Ned Yost continuing to play Omar Infante over Ben Zobrist. Ben Zobrist came along, and Omar Infante’s limited assets were suddenly less significant. Infante was a terrific defensive player – which is more valuable that Traylor’s screens, or whatever. Yet he found the bench. It is the weight of the evidence. It was also kind of like when Ned Yost batted Chris Getz leadoff or second. It made no sense. But when Yost had better players, Getz was gone.
Bragg is perhaps not quite Zobrist, but Traylor is not even near Infante. The difference over the course of a season is probably the same.
drgnslayr last edited by
I hope for the most part this discussion is over now that Cheick is available.
I’m sure there will still be minutes to award to either Jamari, Landen or Hunter. But surely they will all lose some minutes and this discussion becomes less prominent.
Jamari had a couple of bad TOs in this game. The kind of TOs that can shift the moment of the game over to the other side.
HighEliteMajor last edited by
@drgnslayr This is “hope.” I like hope. I hope too.
drgnslayr last edited by
That is what it is… hope!
I am right with you on your frustrations with Jamari. He is just a slow learner.
When Self mentioned some players not “getting it” I thought of Jamari along with BG. He just doesn’t seem to be able to lift his basketball IQ to a level where he can take advantage of his uber athleticism. I’m guessing that must be insanely frustrating for him… it should frustrate him even more than us!
I just keep my fingers crossed every second he is in the game. Once in a while, he will make a great play that earns us a possession and gets the team fired up. But he seems to have a lot more bad plays where he opens the door for our opponents to get fired up and come back (or pull away with their lead).
And then there are other times where he just goes invisible on the court. We have several guys on this team that somehow have mastered hiding on a court where bright lights shine on only 10 players. Sometimes it seems like some players put more energy into being invisible than just playing and actually participating in the game.
Speaking for myself, I find it hard to bag on a KU kid, unless he is so starkly bad that it costs us the game.
Regarding Jamari Traylor specifically, I do appreciate @HighEliteMajor posting all the relevant stats that clearly differentiate Jamari and Lucas from Hunter (who is a notch above). And we can see Bragg’s potential already. Diallo should be fun to judge as well in a few days…
Interestingly, I rewatched the 2012 EJ39 game at IowaState, and wouldn’t you know, Jamari Traylor came in and in a fluid motion in transition, pulled up for a pullup J from the left side of about 12foot range, which he narrowly missed. It was then that I realized he was doing the things he does, but hasn’t really developed too far from 3 years ago. I like his improved FTs. I like him trying whatever he can and has been given the green light to try.
Personally, I think Self is rewarding a hard-toiling senior with mpg. Which leaves Hunter Mickelson a bit out in the cold.
If the discussion is “size”, pick Lucas or Hunter over Jamari.
But we also know Jamari is a scrapper, which we also know Self likes.
Here’s Jamari Traylor in a nutshell: A hard-working athletic player, who seems to have plateaued. And one who the overwhelming evidence shows has a very narrow margin to remain a net-positive on the court. (Throws a couple of turnovers, or misses a couple of bunnies, then his overall value becomes very debate worthy in that game.). Same applies to Lucas, to be quite honest.
I do truly agree with HEM’s assertion that if we are starting Jamari at the 5 by March, we have capped our roster’s potential ability to help this season. The bigger picture is that we will & may lose several players after this season, so there is a “window” present regarding a team’s chance to perform at a high level. I agree his turnovers were bad. Self seems to not ride him as much as he’s rode others.
In my heart of hearts, I’ve really wished and hoped for Jamari to get to some next level with his repertoire, but that really hasn’t happened. If he is setting 12 picks/screens per game for a score everytime, eventhough he’s only scoring 4-5pts, that is one thing…but he isn’t. So the difficult question becomes, who is better for the team, both now and in the long run? Of course that is up to the $52million Man, isn’t it?
I like Landon Lucas less than I like Jamari, hate to say. Jamari always dives for loose balls, throws his body around. More KU teammates need to emulate Jamari in that regard. Love his hustle plays. But we need more on the floor–> why stay with 4ppg marginal glue, when you could get a double-figure scorer out of the 5 position (possibly) by March???
KansasComet last edited by
@ralster If Bragg plays starter minutes, would he average a double-double? I for one, think that he would.
@KansasComet I agree, as I can see Bragg’s “feel” for the game already, although he is still learning the hi-low thing…and that is the whole conundrum–> we could have a real, true, productive 5 position player (or just 2 fwds), but we have to groom the frosh to that point. I think it WILL happen. Self has all December to toy with lineups and rotation mpg. Hey, its in the kids’ own hands…they show that they can play, or they show they are too raw like frosh TRob…
Self has to balance a developmental-track senior’s hope for mpg vs the “now” impact of some top 20 frosh who can actually play as a frosh. Bragg and Diallo are perfect examples, as are KY kids. Self has always played his playable frosh, sometimes out of necessity, other times because even he knows he just cant sit him. Even Cole (McDAA) played a few minutes throughout that 08 season…Sherron played from Day 1, almost altering the balance between RussRob / Chalmers.
Xavier Henry started from Day 1, and he did upset that team’s balance (was poised to be Sherron + Tyshawn, with Releford at the 3…)–this is already chronicled and described elsewhere.
KansasComet last edited by KansasComet
Bragg over Traylor? Definitely. Bragg is more polished than Traylor. Bottom line is Bragg is just a better player. I like Traylor and he gives great effort, however he is not on Bragg’s level. A good comparison would be Teahan and McLemore. Had McLemore been eligible, Teahan’s minutes would have diminished significantly. The best players need to play. This is not to say that Teahan could not play. McLemore was clearly the better player.
KansasComet last edited by
@ralster Agreed. I like and I appreciate Traylor’s efforts. I don’t think he will ever become a double-double machine that Bragg can be for this team. Not at this point in his career anyway.