Let's talk Summer Korea World Games- B. Greene Surgery Impact
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@dylans Okay, maybe I’m just arguing with your choice of words. Hyperbole means an exaggeration for the point of emphasis. Phrases like “he weighed a ton,” "I’ve got a million things on my mind,’ “he was grinning from ear to ear” are examples of hyperbole. Saying Coach K may be the greatest basketball coach ever is certainly not an exaggeration, as one could make a legitimate argument that he is as good or better than Wooden, given the differences of the state of the game in their respective coaching eras.
As for who I’d like to see coaching, I’m of the opinion that there are a good handful of coaches out there who could do as well as Bill at Kansas. Granted, Bill is a great recruiter, but I think the name Kansas does a good bit of recruiting on its own. Kansas Basketball is bigger than any one coach. And if jaybate’s Shoe Company theory holds water, which seems entirely plausible to me, there are plenty of coaches out there who could recruit well to Kansas.
As to specific names that I think would do well at Kansas-- Mark Few, Steve Alford, Mark Turgeon, Brad Stevens, Gregg Marshall, Larry Krystkowiak, Mike Brey, Billy Donovan, Sean Miller–and there are probably plenty more. Heck why not throw in Tom Izzo? And Rick Pitino even became available during Bill’s tenure also.
I’m not saying fire Bill. I’d rather see him adapt his coaching style and continue to improve. But desperately clutching on to the same old thing simply out of fear of nothing else better being available (like the hi-lo post, lol) is no way to grow.
Heck I remember being upset when they fired Ted Owens, thinking “Well who else are they gonna get?” That turned out okay.
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Thanks for the comments. Could we have reached the final four, sure. We did it in 2012. But should we have reached the final four, certainly not. We were not one of the best teams in the nation this year, and certainly not with Cliff (assuming Cliff would have peaked at just the right time which is a generous assumption).
The Final Four is indeed a crap shoot, depending upon match ups, luck, getting hot at the right time, injuries, eligibility issues, one guy making a miracle play at just the right time, etc.
My point is your postings often seem to criticize the coach b/c he does not make it to every final four, and it is somehow his fault b/c he certainly has the talent, and therefore he is doing a poor job, and (full circle) it is his fault we are under performing in March.
I enjoy your analysis but I think this is not a good conclusion and unfair to players, fans and coach.
Winning is very hard. Winning consistently is even harder. Peaking at the right time, with the right team, getting the right match ups, getting lucky and having guys healthy and elgible, etc. are a lot of variables and most of them are not due to coaching.
KU players, teams and our coach have actually done very well in the Self era, most years meeting or exceeding expectations. The tourney has been disappointing the last two years, and the “Killer Bs” have created a complex within the KU nation. The 2012 team was unbelievable and they way overachieved…and got lucky to make it to the finals. . .
The lack of our big man at the 5 during the last two tourneys has been far more significant and the source of our loses than the coaching. This year, we missed Cliff and last year we really missed Embiid. That’s the way it goes in March and with a single elimination tourney.
My conclusion: Watching the elite teams this year, and watching KU this year (and last year), there is simply no way we were among the elite teams, and not final four talent. Maybe last year with Embiid, maybe…but certainly not this year, even with Cliff.
Respectfully, you write your post, concluding:
*Seeing Self’s comments from last night really just make me angry. This team began the season as a Final Four team. This team was 21-4.
But that all changed, didn’t it? We ended 6-5 and played embarrassingly bad against WSU. As Landen Lucas said, WSU just wanted it more.
I’m not sure there is any supposed injury that affects “want to.” Though maybe a media member could ask Self. I’m sure he’d speculate on that. *
Respectively, this is in my opinion a cheap shot at the coach, the program and the players,
Having talent and having an eite team are not at all the same thing. How do they mature over the year as individuals and as a team? Duke’s freshman actually came together as a unit and outperformed at just the right time. UK’s talent was ridiculous (maybe they had the two best teams in the nation), The Badgers were senior laden with a great group and talented big men and they had been there last year…these were only the elite teams in the nation this year.
KU was just nowhere near that level. We could have got lucky, won another game or two, but probably got what we deserved at our level of performance and year end team talent (ability to perfom in a game, not rankings or potential).
I am of the opinion that WSU has had better teams than KU the last two years, and that our lose in the second round this year had more to do with them, than us. Great - game on! We accept the challenge and it is good for us and our program.
But throwing the coach under the bus for not reaching the final four this year…?
I enjoy the board and your posts and the others as well - next year, with one new elite talent big (and we will certainly get one), we will be better and ready to make a run.
Cheers!
RCJH
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@jayhawk-007 I would agree that it’s a crapshoot to be NC, but I’m not so sure I agree with your comment that it’s a crapshoot to make the FF. I doubt if fans at UK, Duke, UCONN, or UNC feel that way. I would say to make the FF is a matter of having the talent, using it properly, and being prepared to play.
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There are favorites every year to make the final four, and those teams do have more talent and preparedness, and have better odds to advance b/c they are better teams. The best programs (like KU) expect to be in the hunt, and rightfully so.
But every year a great team does not make it out of the second round, and another over performs for a while (this year MSU who was no where near the level of the other three teams, or KU in 2012).
IMO, this year we did not have a great team, we got a tough match up second round, and got beat by a better, more motivated team.
RCJH!
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I don’t really see us as a contender until outsiders look at us and exchange the description “a lot of talent” for “a lot of scrap.” I’d take scrappy over talent any day of the week. That is why we lost to WSU. They sure as heck didn’t out-talent us.
I always call it “chip” but call it whatever you want.
The road to the FF is paved in blood from players who scrap it out for loose balls and rebounds. Who wants it more? And who has the toughness to go dive for balls?
I get frustrated because I think most Kansas fans are as delusional as the players… always thinking we just need to increase the talent level. It is the Kentucky way… 9 McDs AAs with most of them back for year 2 and they still couldn’t get it done. All that NBA size and talent. El zippo! The only reason Calipari has won 1 NC is the unibrow. He would have taken the worst team in America and made them a contender, but he was the exception… approaching a Wilt level talent. I said approaching… How many McDs AAs were on Kentucky the next year when they bowed out early in the NIT?
How many of those UCONN players are in the league now compared to Kentucky after last year?
I’m not against talent. It helps immensely… but not when it comes with a price tag of playing soft.
Duke won it all and they had a bunch of talent… They also had guys like Allen who would dive into a pit of cobras for a loose ball. If I could steal one guy out there for our team, he would be my first choice because maybe it would rub off on us like it did on his team mates who closed it out on the Badgers.
I give up on the idea of coaching a chip. I’m convinced… some guys have it, others don’t. If they don’t have it, then leave them for Kentucky. Let’s find the kids who dive for balls, whether it be in an all-star game or a class-3 rural game.
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@jayhawk-007 I understand what you are trying to say but if that’s the way I felt, I would just be happy with another conference championship. Apparently, that’s not a crapshoot. Or is it?
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Based on what they did throughout the season and where they were projected to finish in the tournament, UConn had no business winning last year any more than MSU had making it to the Final Four this year and in the process providing an easy game to Duke instead of the tough game Wisconsin had against UK…so yes, the road to the final four is a crap shoot and involves a lot of luck.
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No the conference winner is not a crap shoot, especially in the Big 12 where we play each team twice, home and away. There is some luck (Blake Griffin being hurt the day we play OU for the conf title, for example), but overall, year after year, the best team will win.
In a series (like the NBA playoffs) the best team will almost always win. But in one game, with little prep, at college level, playing against the top competition…the best team does not always win.
Our 2008 NC team was one of the best, but not a clear dominant team (like UK this year). Down by 9 with a minute to go and we win in OT? Everything has to fall just right and there are so many good teams, one guy gets hot…voila.
Check out year in and year out performance, in pre-conf play, conf play - we know this one with 11 straight titles - and post-conf (ncaa tourney) and you will see that KU is at the top or near the top in the Self era.
The string of 11 conf titles is actually more impressive than a national title or two but the media and fans do not feel that way.
RCJH!
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@jayhawk-007 I don’t feel that the 11 is more impressive than a NC either. Or even a FF for that matter.
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Fun Facts
Most Final Four teams in history:
18 North Carolina
17 Kentucky, UCLA*
16 Duke
14 Kansas
10 Louisville, Ohio State*
10 Michigan State
Kansas Tourney record through 2014:
138 games, 96 wins, 42 losses = winning percentage = .696
Kentucky:
163 ; 116 ; 47 ; .712
Duke
133 ; 99 ; 34 ; .744
North Carolina
153 ; 110 ; 43 ; .719
Most tourney games by coach:
Mike Krzyzewski Duke 88
Dean Smith North Carolina 65
Roy Williams Kansas, North Carolina 65
Jim Boeheim Syracuse 53
Rick Pitino Providence, Kentucky, Louisville 53
Jim Calhoun Connecticut 49
John Wooden UCLA 47
Lute Olson Iowa, Arizona 46
Tom Izzo Michigan State 46
Bob Knight Indiana, Texas Tech 45
Denny Crum Louisville 42
most final fours by coach
Mike Krzyzewski Duke 12
John Wooden UCLA 12
Dean Smith North Carolina 11
Tom Izzo Michigan State 7
Rick Pitino Providence, Kentucky, Louisville 7
Roy Williams North Carolina, Kansas 7
Denny Crum Louisville 6
Adolph Rupp Kentucky 6
Bob Knight Indiana 5
Guy Lewis Houston 5
Lute Olson Iowa, Arizona 5
Bill Self is only 52. Here is his record at KU:
2003–04 Kansas 24–9 12–4 T–2nd NCAA Elite Eight
2004–05 Kansas 23–7 12–4 T–1st NCAA Round of 64
2005–06 Kansas 25–8 13–3 T–1st NCAA Round of 64
2006–07 Kansas 33–5 14–2 1st NCAA Elite Eight
2007–08 Kansas 37–3 13–3 T–1st NCAA Champions
2008–09 Kansas 27–8 14–2 1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2009–10 Kansas 33–3 15–1 1st NCAA Round of 32
2010–11 Kansas 35–3 14–2 1st NCAA Elite Eight
2011–12 Kansas 32–7 16–2 1st NCAA Runner-up
2012–13 Kansas 31–6 14–4 T–1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2013–14 Kansas 25–10 14–4 1st NCAA Round of 32
2014–15 Kansas 27–9 13–5 1st NCAA Round of 32
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@HighEliteMajor I can make it even more simple for you. We lost Alexander towards the end of the year, Perry Ellis got banged up and Brannen Greene wasn’t the same for whatever reason. In spite of this Coach Self did not throw in the towel he continued to put his best foot forward with what he had. I am sure the plan at the end of last year was not to have Lucas and Mickelson as our big men. Imagine if he had landed Okafor and Jones? A five star big and a five star clutch shooting point? Coach Self tried his hardest and almost pulled it off. He did not get Okafor and Jones, but somehow he made us competitive again this year and should be praised.
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In case you missed it:
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I get it you value the results of a 6 game single elimination tournament more than continuous excellence throughout the season. You are not alone, but you are in the minority of people familiar with the sport and that includes just about every sports writer out there.
You can read it here and here how other people see the conference title winning streak.
If KU goes on to tie or beat UCLA’s streak of 13 consecutive titles, it will most likely considered one of the greatest achievement in team sports ever, considering that KU did it in a time of much greater parity and with a heck of a lot more capable teams than during the UCLA run when a handful of teams dominated the sport.
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@jayhawk-007 Thanks for the wonderful reminder!!
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@JayHawkFanToo If I were a UCONN fan, I would value the fact that they have had 5 national chamnpionships in the past 15 years more than I would if they had won the conference for 11 straight years. Even though they didn’t win conference those years, they had to have decent records to get to the tourney in the first place.
I have never said it’s not impressive. It’s hard to compare it to UCLA’s streak because they had to win the conference every year just to get in the tournament. Then after they won their conference, they went undefeated through the NCAA for so many years.
It doesn’t appear that top recruits are banging the door down to come make it 12 in a row.
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@Wigs2 our coaches have also been working on 2016 players too. Not about to give up on this year!
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yada, yada, yada…and KU was supposed to finish behind Texas, ISU and Oklahoma last season, how did that work out?
A lot more difficult to win consecutive titles in this day and age than when UCLA did it, they had overwhelming talent and little competition back then.
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Good lord, I’ve been air-dropped in Blue Pill territory. You know, where Bill Self is God and the peons run around with their crimson and blue colored glasses doing ritualistic chants. Places where objectivity has died. @Wigs2, you better run. They don’t like your kind around here. It doesn’t matter what you think. Don’t you know that? When a Bill Self circle jerk is occurring, you best head for the hills my friend. Blue Pill territory is a dangerous place for free thinkers.
@JayHawkFanToo is great a citing links where folks revere the conference streak. Yay for @JayHawkFanToo for the ingenuity. And, of course, for the standard “NCAA tourney is luck” stuff. You know, isn’t it interesting how since about March 19, no one cares about the conference streak except some of us? It’s weird how that “lucky” NCAA tourney gets all the run – you know, the place where a true champion is crowned? How do these top programs keep winning if it’s so darn lucky?
@KansasComet is helpful for telling everyone that somehow, someway, Bill Self “made us competitive this year.” Amazing feat. I mean really, without coach Self the most talented roster in the Big 12 would have surely collapsed. He just had to rely on Mickelson and Lucas, didn’t he. He had to play conventionally. He had to play his system. He had no other choice.
@jayhawk-007 for citing NCAA tourney achievements for a guy who has made exactly two final fours in his entire career (and of course, is only 52 years old). Why would anyone want more? Why should we expect more. And of course, our roster is littered with highly ranked players that was just not talented enough to get to the final four. Just not enough “talent.” What is an elite program to do? I mean, WSU was surely more “talented.” Stanford too.
@dylans - last but not least, for helping us all to understand that we were lucky not to lose “15-16 games” this season, but for Bill Self’s amazing coaching. How he managed not lose big, we will never know.
There you have it folks. Blue Pill territory. A tight knit group. Loyal, you know, like a dog. Where objectivity, critical thinking, and strategy analysis come to die. Where the occupants wouldn’t know X’s and O’s if they hit them in the side of the head. No time for those complexities and complications. Don’t want any of that game planning crap in Blue Pill territory. No sir. Simple thoughts. Keep things simple. Follow Bill Self. Cite the good stuff, ignore the bad. All is well. Makes me happy.
Now, don’t get me wrong. The Red Pill folks do like coach Self. It’s just that view squarely up his a** that we don’t care for.
**Edit - Please note that @jayhawk-007’s post is noted as an example. Clearly a critical thinker. Maybe not Red Pill, but certainly leaning that way.
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@approxinfinity How about that block button, please. Negative Nancy is ruining this site. I come here for fun not to be told how I’m routing for my team wrong.
@HighEliteMajor Last comment directed to you. How about a little talk about the 90% of Bill you like. Or presenting the 10% in a constructive manner. The team lost you can cry about it or get over it like a man and move on. Support your team however you choose, just please direct your negativeness elsewhere. I will try to not ruin your day with my positve feelings about Bill and KU.
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@dylans Try this, don’t read what I write. It’s the same as it was at the other site. I know my approach is not everyone’s cup of tea. I’ve mentioned that before and I’m fine with that. Or, if you choose to tell me why I’m wrong, do that. But don’t expect that I will accept “because Bill Self says so” or “he’s won 500 games” as a reasonable argument most of the time.
Remember, the 90% is nice. We like coach Self for it. But it isn’t much for conversation or discussion. Because it is the 10% that frames whether we get better, or we get worse.
I still love your avatar.
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Here is a link for you…Link for HEM…
You obviously think you know more than Coach Self and are not shy about it and you also continuously reminds us that know more than all of us forum members as well and that only your opinion counts…might as well apply for Coach Self’s job. Please be sure to let us know what they say…once they stop laughing.
You remind me of the nagging wife, that can’t even keep the household budget straight,. telling her husband, the CEO of a Fortune 500 company that just finished the year with a billion dollar profit, that he is doing it all wrong.
P.S. Read @ralster’s posts about his time with coach Self, you could learn a lot…although I seriously doubt it.
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@HighEliteMajor Bill Self is not a god, but he is something you are not nor will ever be and that is the Head Coach of the Kansas Jayhawks.
In order to be the Coach of the Kansas Jayhawks you must be appealing to the student athletes that you recruit. You must get kids to buy in to your Program. You must play to your players strengths while not exposing too many of your teams weakeness. You must be gracious in victory and defeat.
I can appreciate wanting the team to improve. I think we all want that. Self wanted Okafor and Jones last year. He did not get them. He lost to WSU last year, and I am sure no one is more upset about that than he is. Now he is back on the recruiting trail working his butt off trying to improve our Jayhawks. More 3 point shots would not have won us a Championship. It was never a simple as that.
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The comedy routine continues.
Did you know that President Obama is right, and is always right? I mean, he is the president. And you’ll never be president. So there. You shouldn’t question him. He knows more about his job than you do, so your opinion is irrelevant. There is no way that anyone who is not president could be actually right in their criticisms. And there is no way that president Obama could be wrong.
What a joke.
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@JayHawkFanToo excellent post.
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A hypothetical question, one that skirts the notion of Self modifying or coming up with something different himself: If we only say that Self is among the top10 or 15 Div.1 coaches currently, and leave it at that–> Let’s ask: How would Krzyzewski or Calipari or Bo Ryan or Roy Williams or Tom Izzo do with this KU team entering the Madness? Should I stick Hoiberg in that list? I mean he did worse than Self, so, I’m not sure on that one…Should I put Tony Bennett on the list (2 30+win seasons, but bounced, no Final 4 for UVa fans). I talked to a UVa alum at the camp who was frankly still in disbelief and shock. I was careful to be very nice to him, and make several positive comments about UVa, and them winning the ACC, etc…
I’m just wanting to put this mental yearning to somewhat of a test…albeit a mental-only test.
Remember, we would give our ‘guest’ coach a team that is missing a 6’8, 245 paint presence due to NCAA issues. We would also have one of the best 3shooters in Div1, but one who is hobbled significantly since Feb, and frankly is not “the best 3shooter” since that labrum tear (Greene). On the plus side, they will get an unbelievable tandem guard combination of Mason + Graham, who are the strength of this team. The wing guys are inconsistent with Oubre and Selden (who may or may not pull out his DWade impersonation). Defense is no where near MichState level, and they got bounced out of the Final4 the easiest.
SO, what would board rats think our ‘guest’ coaches would do with Bill’sBoys, if given the entire Tourney run?
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Or, let’s “flip” our critique & say to Self: You want a bunch of tough kids with heart, but they went out the door with Tyshawn and Thomas Robinson (overly dramatic on purpose…).
Should we call some of our players “weak-links” directly? Why can’t they do what past Self teams were able to do? Hmm, maybe we’re on to something here: same Self, same system, the one variable is the different parts (players) that have been plugged in. That, kinda-sorta…is about the biggest variable there is, am I right?
Along this same, somewhat painful, player-critique line of thinking --> what if we got detailed, in-depth critique of this KU team from recently departed KU players like Tyshawn, EJ, Sherron, Chalmers, RussRob, Rush, Aldrich, Withey, TRob, Morris&Morris, Releford…what would they say? I’d be damn curious, as they know the coach, the plays, and what it took inside to execute it much, much better than we’ve seen the last 2yrs, on both ends of the court. Their’s is perhaps the most relevant perspective.
I will simply touch on my own personal ideas about our lackluster play (ncaa stuff and injuries aside), by saying those past KU teams/players, and that’s several different ones under Self…had something(s) that the last 2 seasons did NOT have. Just my observation…(but I’m stopping short of calling our guys pussies, because, as usual, that would be an oversimplification, and doesn’t do analytical justice to this team’s myriad of issues).
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@ralster and Perry less than 100%.
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Free-the-3: We did. (best 3% in bigXII, not IowaSt). But y’all know the rest, Greene got hurt in Feb, so the 3shooting goes in the tank, and you see Self trying to develop the post game for 2 reasons: cannot have incompetent post presence heading into Tourney (but then Perry gets hurt, never the same)…and maybe he had to, since his very own Ray Allen-pure 3gun (Greene) was never the same.
I did NOT see Mason or Graham stop shooting 3s, both with 40% 3guns…Selden was his usual yo-yo. Oubre didn’t stop shooting them. But you cannot expect a no-post-presence team to make it far in the Dance.
Square-pegs/Round-holes is not as powerful a statement as you might at first think: This is basketball, and KU has its share of athletic ballers. It comes down to experience and heart. You could put any coach in the practice gym or in the huddle and have him finger a player in the chest (I know, that’d send ripples thru ku athletic dept…lol!) and say “How about you guard somebody?” or “you gonna let him (opponent) shut you down like that?” To me, square-peg/round-hole is a cop-out that is seeking to let someone off the hook for not performing basic basketball.
Anybody want to tell me how the midmajors with no 5stars or McDs are in the right spots, and defending, and running offense, etc,…with their OBVIOUS lack of talent (hehe…). What would Mark Few and Gregg Marshall say about square-pegs/round-holes? Very likely they’ll say the same goddamn thing Self would say: "This is your assignment, now get out there and play the f–king game, or your ass is comin’ out!..*
This is high, elite, Div1, major program basketball–> I wish we’d quit pussy-footin’ around whichever of our starters/subs aren’t getting the job done. Because they’d shortly lose their job…
The logic of square-pegs/round-holes very quickly ends up with: OK, if they’re a “bad fit”, then they’re off the team. Man, these players KNOW the coach and playstyle before they commit. That is known. Greene picked us. Selden picked us. Ellis picked us. They already know they are going to have to bust their ass. We all know Self is up-front in recruiting. Doesn’t it seem like a stretch to say we are recruiting the wrong guys for our system? I mean when does that happen? Its a system, watching guys from when they are 14 or 15…
Stop letting guys off the hook. Im not talking about proven guys, Im talking about the young variables…Again, another example: why is frosh Devonte sooo much better than Tharpe ever was? He may even be better than Tyshawn or Elijah Johnson. And why is 5’11 Mason so different than 5’11 Tharpe? Teams depend on their key parts. Look at the difference at just one position when 1 key part is changed. But we’re not a complete team, just look at what’s missing. So easy if you look for it, instead of trying to make excuses for piss poor play, right there on the hardwood, right there in front of your own eyes.
