Let's talk Summer Korea World Games- B. Greene Surgery Impact
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“While every single Jayhawk man, woman, and child has every right to ask Self about early Tourney exits, the same questions should be directed to Roy, Coach K, Calipari, etc…by their respective fanbases–> and they were…I read many Dukie and KY and UNC comment boards after their 1st round exits and NIT “experiences”… It wasn’t pretty from about 40-50% of the comments immediately following their losses either.”
We fans expect a lot. Most of us are far past the age of our players so we don’t even recall how we executed at their age. How much of the March performance is a total crap shoot because the players are so young? How can a coach predict if his guys will come out and execute? Even if they do execute, anything can happen and a team can get rattled.
I think back to myself at that age. I can’t imagine having to execute with all the pressure these kids face today. I marvel at the level of execution they actually accomplish. I remember being the biggest oaf on first dates in college. Tripping over cracks in the sidewalk and stuttering my words. Yet… I expect these kids to step into an arena with 40ooo screaming fans and TV cameras with big lights and think they should execute perfectly. I know, I know… they’ve been building up to this since junior high. So was my conversations with girls…
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@Crimsonorblue22 On executing reliably: Best example is the 08 team, must have a TON of reps to do things at high speed to catch foes off guard. So much of our set offense relies on timing! When we say a player is “thinking too much”, we are essentially saying they have uncertainty about what to do, & in that moment of hesitancy, they’ve given up part/most of the natural advantage an offensive player possesses. SO, regardless if you are a McDAA or not, you will do better with experience & toughness on your side.
So, the biggest takeaway lesson for this system is to have a team that knows what its doing, from an experience standpoint. Talent plays a big part in how soon a kid can reliably contribute, as well as pure bball ability.
Consider the '12RunnerUp hawks. Not a McD on the roster, but look what experience did for TRob, EJ, TT, Withey, Releford, KYo. Part of their talent quotient, though, was that they were spotty shooters…had a habit of falling behind, and that caught up with them in their final game.
I also see that some guys get off on blasting Self for his recruiting “misses”, and then there’s the inevitable sarcasm when commenting on the chances that Lucas or Jamari or Tharpe could lead us to a Final4. My general response (which hasnt changed since Day 1), is that I wish it were that easy to go recruit exactly what you need every single year, no such thing as NBAfree agency in college.
Frankly, the square peg/round hole thing can never be as simplistic as it sounds. Its just basketball…played by still-developing-kids. Some my come w/certain skills, but invariably add more. They get bigger & more physical, and often look better in yr 2 or 3 than yr 1.
How can anyone explain NON-McDAA Mason playing so well, especially in Yr2? Self’s comment on Mason to me: Frank should have been this good last year, as a frosh, but that is some of the poor leadership by Tharpe…
How can you explain NON-McDAA Devonte simply able to outplay frosh EJ, Tharpe, Selby, TT, Chalmers, RussRob, Releford, Reed, Brady, & even frosh Mason? Kid isnt even top50.
My point is its highly variable when a kid will “get it”, and when you have a whole team of kids trying to figure it out & get tough & consistent, that entire team’s development & reliability simply cannot be rushed. Fans drive themselves crazy with angst, grief, and then of course show up in public forums armed to the max with sarcasm, rhetoric, or even stats (which we alrdy know are poor) and commence blasting on whatever kid or whatever coach. Man…Why put yourself thru such angst, frustration, and downright fury aimed at (any) college bball team? I guess it IS therapeutic for some to have to vent.
Actually, I even care less about bragging rights (another reason fans get pissed after a loss). I live in Wichita. Whenever I get a comment from a Shox fan, I always reply with the analytical-tape line about mistakes, turnovers, defense, and veteran team poise vs losing poise. Interestingly, BOTH Self and Marshall used the “poise” word about that game, but from different perspectives. I knew KU was done even by the start of the 4th period, and that wry half-smile from Self told me he knew it as well. Ask yourselves why we didnt see red-faced-Self storming the sidelines? Because he knew his team didnt have it. Cant beat a dead horse. But how many comments we read that are couch-potato-level understanding, suggesting he got “outcoached”? That is almost funny to me. Thats like saying Krzyzewski got “outcoached” by the Mercer coach last year…stew on that for a minute. Does anyone really believe that? How would one accurately describe that loss by Duke? Did Hoiberg-darling get out-coached (”he’s got nuthin" ) by the UAB coach? Would anyone analytically really want to leave their analytical-cred “card” in that basket & call it good? And then magnify that error by developing theories and suggestions-for-fix based off such a conclusion?
Every single player on '14-15Jayhawks has 2 or 3 things he could be doing better, and when you throw together a whole team of such guys, what will the final product be, at this stage? Answer: Simply maddening, if you allow it to get to you. Must understand all the 15-20 reasons (recall I said ea player has 2-3 things he absolutely must improve upon) why this was one of Self’s “worst” teams. So, lets leave our analytical brains with 1 more opportunity to understand: Why was it one of Self’s worst?
My only advice to fellow jhawks is to NOT shy away from the complexity of the correct answer–fight thru the screen that human nature makes us want to boil it all down to something simple… But the answer here is absolutely not simple. Multifactorial, and tightly interwoven & interdependent amongst those multiple factors. (And it doesnt matter what brand of shoe a team is wearing…)
Peace.
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@ralster well-said! I agree 100%! You need to post more often.
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@ralster Thank you so much for sitting down and writing that. There are some on this site with very different views. I am a Bill Self fan, not a worshiper, but he did better than any other coach could with the hand he was dealt. How he handled BG with the many suspensions that brought praise from BG’s father when both talked about his return this year - how he won the league for an 11th time with no real big man to speak of - how he has created two of the best guards not only in the Big12, but in the nation. I for one appreciate his blunt honesty. There are many in the media that are trying to slow down the KU perpetual show and get the spotlight back to the East Coast where the gazillion TV $'s are. Sarcasm is a weak form of argument when a National Championship is required every year. I am personally proud to be despised by all other college fans that hate our dynasty. When those who think that Self is past his prime and chase him out of town because he deserves his demise, I’ll quit this site and leave it to the haters.
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@JayHawkFanToo Have to be 35-50 to play in the camp games, although there were a couple of 34yr olds, as well as 5-7 guys over 60 (that also played).
By FAR, the most enjoyable part was seeing Self’s candor, warmth, reactions, and charisma. (I know KUinLA wont like this, but Bill Self is an absolute Midwesterner…in most of the ways you can imagine). He is about 2-3yrs older than myself, and I’ve always had an understanding for guys like him. When around him, it is very easy to forget his accomplishments over the last 20yrs as a HC, and equally easy to see why he is a top-tier recruiter. Not everyone can have such a persona.
The camp games were so-so. Not a lot of chemistry on the teams, as nobody knew what each other could do as players. Our team of mostly east coast biz guys seemed to think 2-3 zone-D was the way to go. How do you tell such guys that we “don’t play zone at Kansas” (other than as a junk D)? So, for me, gone were the opportunities to jump passing lanes for steals, help-side-D steals/blocks/strips, and just flat out harassing/blanketing my man. Offensively, since the 3 biz guys knew each other (from same company), the plays they drew up were designed for their ‘looks’. The teams were supposed to be random 8 guys by rule.
So all in all, a cool KU+Self experience. Hudy was incredible with what she does and showed us. The “playing ball” portion of the camp was forgettable. Other than Billy Gillispie walking by me and telling me he wanted to draft me, “but they got you first”. I now think he was just being polite…haha! I saw gamefilm video of myself during a video film session, and I looked slow and old.
KU facilities: first rate!
KU players: Wayne Selden is a cool dude! Saw a lot of Devonte and Hunter. Greene is skinny. Frank was busy in the gym shooting dozens of 3s by himself. Perry came and went, didn’t get to pass along the “hi” to him from his h.s. PG that I play ball with in Wichita… Lucas, Selden, Jamari, Evan, Tyler, Devonte, all showed up for their Hudy session early in the AM.
This glimpse behind-the-scenes softened the rough ending to the season, as I saw our guys just need to keep working and try to get better, as we also prepare to replace the holes left by Cliff and Oubre.
I’m looking fwd to next season, and the Korea outing should be a great team jelling & coaching boost heading into the season.RCJH.
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@tis4tim Yes, Self and everyone put back a few drinks at YachtClub. Especially with the waitresses they picked to work that night!
This was when Self talked about Tarczewski’s recruitment, that got utterly shafted by Kaleb’s AAU coach. I will leave out the (choice word) that Self used to describe it…
I also asked Self how Shaka “thinks his style will work against the BigXII” (I was trying to be diplomatic), and Self said something along the lines of (Shaka pretty much calling out KU with that comment). I don’t think Self needs any motivation to go totally dismantle Shaka Smart. As I put in another post, watching him break down every nuance of what Hoiberg is doing with IowaState was simply incredible. He knows what is “bullsh–” offense, and where the real threat is coming from in Hoiberg’s offensive sets…For me, the key is if Self’s kids can execute things as well as his past teams proved they could?
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Gosh man… you are getting us all jacked up for ball when we need to be tending our gardens! ha…
Awesome in depth posts on the MAN, Bill Self. Enjoyed it thoroughly.
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@ralster Ahhhh…perspective. Gee, what a concept!!! LOL. Thank you. Great stuff, guy.
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This is some of the best inside information we have had on Coach Self in a long time and I have no doubt that he has an extreme knowledge of the game and an incredible memory; I have heard hims describe plays in games several years old in minute detail before.
It always amazes me when individuals with a fraction of the knowledge Coach Self has and ZERO knowledge of what goes on behind close doors are constantly second guessing what he does.
Again, thanks for sharing your experience, it really puts things in perspective and gives us a better insight into the man himself.
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@ralster watching him break down every nuance of what Hoiberg is doing with IowaState was simply incredible.
But wait, didn’t Fred beat Bill twice this year? Well, I guess Bill talks a good game. Or maybe he actually watched the tapes of those games to get some insight on what Fred was doing…
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@KUinLA Or maybe the players didn’t execute. I thought the offense was terrible all year because guys were out of position. Once a second competent post player is added the team will look much better.
It seemed to me Mason played poorly in 2-3 games at the end of the season all losses. When that happened the wheels really came off. That tells me the team was on a razors edge. They could’ve easily had 15-16 losses if it weren’t for good coaching. I also think these extra wins Bill coaches them to gets the Jayhawks a seed higher than they probably deserve and that’s why you see “underperformance” in the dance.
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“That tells me the team was on a razors edge.”
I think ALL college teams live on a razor’s edge. They are kids and kids freak out. A senior-laden team might keep better composure, but we’ve even seen those teams choke.
I like how you mentioned that our guys were out of position. Couple that with timing and motion issues. After our brief love affair with the long ball, we went back to Self’s bread and butter, playing through the post. With just a little tweaking couldn’t that have run every bit as well as ISU’s offense on a good day? Seriously? We were pounding the ball into Perry around the FT line, and the entire world knows he is dangerous in that area so defenses collapsed… but where was the outlet 3? Once we established our game was working through the post we didn’t follow it up properly by springing guys for open 3s. Our guys either were miss-spaced or they weren’t in motion, creating their own scoring space through motion and timing. If anyone doesn’t know what I mean, please reference back to NDs offense last year. Those guys really knew how to run offense. Timely cuts. When a player exposed a weakness and attacked, the other guys weren’t just standing there watching, they knew that was the time for them to work their own scoring space because there would be a good chance they would receive an assist feed.
Our offense never ran like that… but it had every bit the potential to do so. We had solid scoring capabilities at everything but the 5.
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Great stuff, man. Very enjoyable read. Thanks so much for sharing!
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@ralster Thanks so much for sharing this. Next time, video camera in your headband, OK?
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@ralster Ah man!! I would have liked to been there for that. Picking Coach’s brain, hearing him loosen up and speak like that. Way cool. KU is gonna have some T-bone steaks for dinner two times next season! Oh yah!!
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Do you have any idea how frustrating must be for coaches when they practice all week for a team and at game time the players seem to have forgotten what they did in practice? I understand that the opposing team has a say in the matter but it happens to all teams not just KU. here is a GIF of Calipari physically stepping into the court and shoving his player into position…
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@JayHawkFanToo & @dylans Yeah, but isn’t ‘getting your players to execute’ what you did in practice all week part of coaching? Even if it means physically pushing them into position?
And isn’t 15-16 losses for a team heavy with NBA draft picks a coaching fail? It sure is on this board if your name is Calipari. But then, he and coach K did bounce back from their down years and early exits with Final Four appearances. As I’ve already posted, I’d trade a down year here or there for another win or two in the tournament the next year.
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@KUinLA I hope you don’t use the same logic w/teaching!
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@Crimsonorblue22 lol–basketball coaches are hired on their ability to win, not teach.
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@KUinLA same as teachers teach, they are also hired!
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@Lulufulu - Thought you would be interested in this. New info. The injury was apparently not a progressive one, but a traumatic one. This from kusports.com:
Jeffrey explained the injury: “He had a torn labrum he did in early February that he didn’t tell anybody about. He couldn’t push off his right leg and jump off his right leg. It got worse. The inflammation was the pain he was feeling. It continued to swell and swell. “Genetically when you are 7-years-old you start to form that ball socket. The ball socket was a tiny bit bigger than they felt it should be, so they shaved it down a bit. He had no bone spurs. It went well. He is in recovery in a good amount of pain. Give it a day and the pain should subside.”
Jeff Greene said Brannen wanted to keep playing thus didn’t inform anybody about a possible hip problem this past season. “I noticed he wasn’t getting any lift on his shot. It was flatter than normal at times. It wasn’t the same repeating motion,” Jeff said. “After a few games I was saying to him, ‘Why is your shot different? It’s a different shot than the one that got us here.’ He was trying to keep his condition from everybody, me, the staff, the trainers. He was saying, ‘I just need to stretch out a little more.’ I knew he wasn’t getting lift on the shot. He didn’t want us to know he was injured other than, ‘I think I tweaked something.’’’ Greene’s dad noticed his son had trouble getting out of a chair at the team hotel during the Big 12 tournament, but Greene again said he was just sore from the previous game.
“He came home two weeks ago. He yelled getting out of a chair and had trouble walking. I said, ‘What in the heck is wrong?’ He said, ‘I hurt it. I got hit in a game, hit in practice, my hip has not been the same.’ I said, ‘This happened right before the (shooting) slump didn’t it?’ He said he hurt it but it wasn’t as painful but keeps getting worse,” Jeffrey said. So it was checked out and surgery was deemed the solution. The surgery was performed by Dr. J.W. Thomas Byrd at Nashville Sports Medicine and Orthopaedic Center. The Tennessee Titans team physician has authored several textbooks on hip arthroscopy.
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@HighEliteMajor Very helpful and insightful. Thanks for posting.
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“basketball coaches are hired on their ability to win, not teach.”
I’d like to believe that… but from what I see, winning is just a part of college coaching. Teaching is a big part of college coaching and was at the root of college basketball history. Most early coaches were already teaching at the university. I believe that is why there is a big difference in strategies applied by NBA coaches versus college coaches. If you have a volume scorer who is effective in the NBA the coach will run most of his offense through that one player. College it is all about team, team, team. They teach basketball philosophy, not about all-out winning.
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College coaches are not only that but also teachers and mentors. For many kids, they are the first father figure and positive role model in their lives and I would trade a few wins if the result is kids graduating with a better chance of success in life, particularly as is the case for most kids, outside of basketball. What is it that made you so jaded?
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Teachers are hired to teach, so if all kids don’t get a’s, they fail too?
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As a parent of (former) teenagers I know all too well that they never do what you want them to do and seldom do what they need to do…
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@JayHawkFanToo I guess I sailed under a lucky star. Mine certainly aren’t perfect, but they are responsible, respectful, and have managed to keep their noses clean.
I would venture our players want to do the right things and pretty much do just that. But sometimes a teen just makes a bad decision-because something sounds fun. When I think back to the stupid things I did in my 20’s I am surprised I’m still walking around.
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@JayhawkRock78 said:
When I think back to the stupid things I did in my 20’s I am surprised I’m still walking around.
Lol. Is there anyone (over 30) here, that can’t say that?
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@nuleafjhawk You are probably right. Perhaps we were a bunch of young Jayhawks going Mach 5 with hair on on fire who somehow survived it all.
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I have two real good and grown kids, but in their teen years they did have a rebellious side to them…
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@JayHawkFanToo Well it’s where you finish that matters. Sounds like ya’ll did good.
I hope I can say the same in 5 to 10 years-so far so good.
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@JayhawkRock78 I always figure the Good Lord is keeping us around so we can enjoy another 4 or 5 National Championships.
And hopefully some other stuff that actually means something…
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@nuleafjhawk Now that’s an encouraging thought. (I am trying to quote Gandolf-not sure I got it right though.)
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@KUinLA I wish I had had a teacher as good as Bill Self is a coach. I never had a top 10 teacher. Apparently they were all terrible as a few kids even flunked out. Man talk about not winning.
A good coach and a good teacher are the same. You don’t turn Forrest Gump into Einstein with good or even perfect teaching. You don’t turn Landon Lucas into an all star with a good coach, but you can make him a servicable back up. You help each kid to reach their potiental as a great teacher. You help the team reach its potential as a coach even if that means reigning in a player. A students education doesn’t occur in one year. A team doesn’t reach it’s potiental in one season of playing in a system.
I’m not sure KU didn’t reach it’s one year potiental the last two seasons with the healthy and eligible players that were left at the end of the season. I feel like the long term potiental was far greater than the one year potiental. Next season the players that have been around will be better. Hopefully only limited minutes are to be given to freshman.
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I’m sure Bill is a great guy and it sounds like a great experience to hang out with him in that loosened up atmosphere. And he is a great coach and I’m sure a great teacher. But you can’t ignore the elephant in the room named Tournament Upsets and that’s why I’m jaded.
And I never had a teacher who taught as well as Bill coaches, but I never had a teacher who made $5 million/year. Because they don’t pay teachers $5 mil/year. They pay coaches $5mil/year. To win and generate revenue for the school. And yeah, if a teacher inherited a group of National Merit Scholars and nobody got an A in his class, I’ll bet the administration would have a sit-down with that teacher.
I’m sure coaching candidates at Kansas say all the right things about teaching and graduating and father figure and I’m sure the AD listens and smiles and nods, but at the University of Kansas, they’re looking for someone that they believe can win. I doubt if they’ve hired anyone to ‘teach’ the game since Phog, lol.
But the bottom line is, I wouldn’t be such a sourpuss if we didn’t have all these tournament upsets.
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@KUinLA I could say 99.9% sure, if you had nat. Merit scholars, they would have straight A’s!
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I’m taking back my comments about BG’s defense. I’ve talked bad about how he moves. Hearing what his dad said, I think it would have been really impossible to maintain a defensive stance. How did trained team drs not notice this? I remember when he limped off one game. Get well soon BG and sorry!!!
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Every team that makes to the tournament except one end the season with a loss. You think KU gets upset in the tournament? Ask the fans or most every other school and with very few exceptions they would all trade their programs for a KU-like program. You are so busy thinking about what you don’t have that fail to see what you do have. Be happy…you could be a MU fan.
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@JayHawkFanToo nice!
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@Crimsonorblue22 So if your National Merit Scholars didn’t get A’s, would you think maybe the teacher is suspect? And if your team with 4 or 5 future NBA draft picks get upset by teams with no NBA talent, would you think maybe the coach is suspect?
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@JayHawkFanToo You totally miss my point.
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@KUinLA they would! Seen that. And if all 9 or so 5 star players would be coached by Self, we’d win it all! No doubt! You won’t change my mind.
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…and you miss mine; nothing new.
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@KUinLA If all Bill had was 5 star recruits then yes he better be in the final four every year. You forget he doesn’t get to choose who comes to KU he has to woo 18 year old boys to come to KU. I personally made an excellent decision to attend KU as an 18 year old. Not all the kids Bill wants will make that decision.
For instance, do you think KU would’ve gone further in the dance with a center? We’ve all read about Bill chasing all the top center prospects for the last several years. KU being second choice for Okafor, and Tarc hurt has hurt. I know Bill wants a footer with skills, but one isn’t on the roster.
As to your point about Bill making $5 million per year, so is Billy Donavon and Florida didn’t even make the dance. Billy Donavon is an excellent coach too. What teacher generates $23 million per year at their job so they can be paid $5million per?
Teachers don’t get their due respect always, but if you aren’t generating revenue it’s difficult to come up with the money in the budget. Esp. with a 660 miliion budget shortfall in KS.
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@dylans Wouldn’t you agree that Kansas, under coach Self, has had better talent than all other Big 12 contenders every season during his tenure, save two or three (maybe)?
Whose job is it to ensure we have the “center” on the roster?
Whose job is it to adjust Kansas’ attack when we are missing a piece or two that are preferred pieces?
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@JayHawkFanToo & @Crimsonorblue22 & @dylans I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree then.
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Wouldn’t you also agree that Coach Self has done a better job than any other coach in the League…with no exemptions…as shown by 11 Conference Titles in a row?
What you want and what you get is not always the same thing, regardless of how hard you work at it. I would say that he has used the available personnel as well as anyone…but I am sure you honestly believe you could have done a better job, and on this we just agree to disagree.
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How many times were we picked to win conference? I would guess Texas should have been the best team last year according to talent.
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Texas and Baylor have had plenty of talent over the years and could not do it. This last season, Texas, ISU and OU were all expected to be better than KU but in the end same story…KU wins Conference Title.
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@JayHawkFanToo !!!
