Well KU is going home because of the Fools Gold. Maybe HCBS needs to rethink the whole three point shot.
I’m so tired of KU heading home early because some team shoots the Fools Gold. If the three is Fools Gold why does KU go home every year?
KansasComet last edited by
Thanks for another trip to the NCAA Tournament. Wished the party could have lasted longer.
Bwag last edited by
10-20 for the winners.
HighEliteMajor last edited by
Probably best to take a deep breath, relax, and reflect.
KansasComet last edited by
@HighEliteMajor That’s what is best at this time.
jhawkintexas last edited by
Knew we would lose to WSU after we went from 42% 3 point shooting team until last 7 games. Quit scheduling so hard and let the team rest. They were tired the last 5 weeks
betterfireE last edited by
Maybe we can get some open shots if our guards not named Graham or Mason learned to dribble. Or maybe our bigs can learn to pass a little better to achieve the same effect.
Fools Gold: KU was the best 3pt % shooting team in the BigXII. Oh, and that darling, 3pt-shooting team IowaSt was next best, I think.
But where did this statistically proven 3shooting excellence get BOTH KU and IowaSt? A trip home.
What did the players themselves say post-game? Didnt adhere to “defensive principles”, specifically in ball screen D, is exactly what they said.
What’s the common denominator to UNI, VCU, WichSt? --> KU leaves opposing 3 shooters wide open. Defensive breakdowns. Its what less-disciplined, underclassmen teams can do, moreso than veteran upperclassmen teams (although vet teams like MorrisHawks can still execute poorly or make too many mistakes in a 1 game elim). Dont let the ‘Kentucky Method’ sway you, as thats an obvious exception, but nobody’s going to duplicate KYs roster with 5 uberfrosh+ 5 returnees with NC game experience, not to mention they played some 10game tourney this summer (as a team, which is priceless team time).
I 100% agree with HEM about recruiting top50-type great athletes, as top10 OADs just dont make our system go best. 3-shooting simply isnt the answer in THIS system, and I can spin that even for IowaSt, thanks to their Mercer/NorfolkSt exit…and we werent much better, with our league-best 3%…where’d it go?
Main issue was we couldnt pound it inside with our bigs. Yes, it hurt KU to lose Cliff’s 8pts/6rbs, and his swag. Just like it hurt to lose Embiid. Notice that we battled Stanford, until Tarik Black fouled out. Announcers (Barkley) mentioned KU needed to go inside, exploit WSUs front line…but we didnt. Im OK with calling it poor coaching or underdeveloped players…but classic Selfball, of pounding it inside would have beaten wsu, but the game only reinforced how this squad (for whatever reason) is not such a team. Coupled with players, youthful, who lose poise under pressure. As savvy bball fans, we know enough to see clearly that wsu was way more poised than ku’s team this season.
And another ominous sign, just like it was for ACC-winning Virginia, was that we’d lost 50% of our last 5-6 games, as had Va. Tells you something was amiss, & Im talking about much more than 3%.
Older teams=more consistent (usually). Take Selden: 25pts in same gym 2 nights before, 0 vs WSU. Could have used some consistent production–> I love big Wayne, but cant wait to see him as a Jr (hoping he gets consistent).
Notice we werent running plays in 2nd half, just 1on1 stuff to beat the buzzer…that’s not Self offense. Lack of poise. Same old bball lesson, at the hands of veteran wsu. Not a surprise, but simply not, not, not because we didnt hit more 3s. The answer to the L, lies in poor D, lack of interior toughness, & lack of poise on O. MichSt would have beaten wsu, & yall know exactly how.
Cliff Notes answer to question of “if 3ptr is Fools Gold then why does KU keep going home early because of it?” We went home early because we didnt defend opponents 3.
And had too many t.o.'s…And lost poise…And lack of interior toughness…
Or, god forbid, Self actually is proved correct when trusted, senior, designated greenlight shooters (Sherron, UNI & Reed, VCU)…actually shoot ku outta the gym with their own open look 3s. But the better (& bitter) lesson from UNI, VCU, and now WSU is: poor defensive discipline, & too many mistakes/t.o.'s–which honestly is an oxymoron for a Self team.
Look I’m no expert, but it doesn’t take rocket science to figure this. Half this year I’ve heard nothing but why the high/low works and why it doesn’t. It even went as far as some creating terms to name the various schemes. Bad Ball, 4out 1in, and so on. However at the end of the day, and after a long season reality came crashing down like a big 747. For some KU fans the writing was on the wall and began to prepare themselves for what has happened. Another 2nd round loss. While others had no clue it was coming.
You see we can blame the offense scheme, we can blame it on the defense, and we can blame it on a whole host of other things. However in reality there is no good excuse why a program, a blue blood like KU who has been loaded with talent should bow out of the tournament in the 2nd round two years in a row. That falls on coaching. It’s one or the other they’re not running the right scheme for the talent they have, or they’re not recruiting the right players to run there scheme.
You may not like my stance on the 3 point shot, but the fact remains the same HCBS High/low system does not value the three point shot. it just doesn’t. He hardly ever runs any sets for the shot. Unless the game is on the line, well then it’s to late. You see the thing about three is it is a game changer. It is both the equalizer, and separator. Take the Shockers game for instance. There was a sequence of possessions of where KU would score and then the Shockers would score. Problem is KU would get a two bucket or two shots at the foul line, while the Shockers would hit a three. So even though KU was turning up the offense and scoring points they were losing ground on the score board. The Three can be a powerful thing if you embrace.
Now I’m not saying KU should live be the three as I do love the High/low myself. However I do believe it’s something HCBS should put more value on, instead of treating it like some trinket on a dresser. For crying out loud he called it Fools Gold.
And your wrong the three point shot did cost KU the game. We just weren’t the ones making them.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@DoubleDD he said that, our d against their 3.
Well are we going to use that excuse every year? Sometimes You have to outscore somebody.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@DoubleDD I prefer to keep the other team from scoring. Just me!
Nothing wrong with playing good solid defense, yet to win the game you have put the ball in the hoop. You Don’t get points for playing good defense. LOL
@DoubleDD Oh but you do. Good defense leads to turnovers and turnovers lead to either fast breaks and layups or at least to another possession to run whatever offense you have.
This in fact is one of the problems with the teams of the past 2 years. This year the defense did better at preventing the other team from scoring. However, it was not good enough to create turnovers and it is turnovers that have been the mainstay of the famous KU runs. We didn’t have many runs this year.
@DoubleDD I’ve always seen the point that you have nicely reiterated here, and I partly agree with it & what HEM says about it. And personally speaking, for the last 20+ yrs of playing ball myself, I love the 3, being a 6ft tall SG/combo-type guard (just lowly pkup bball or rec league).
So maybe I make a slightly different point about the complexity of KU’s (Self’s) playstyle elements. We DO have to hit our shots, & I would remind all my fellow hawks that open-look-3’s have ALWAYS been part of the offense. That whole early-possession-hoist-a-3 is only bad if you miss it. But I can remember kickouts to frosh Sherron, Mario, Rush, Reed in corner @ Mizzou, RussRob’s 3 (first ku pts) against unc in Final4…and the looks we’ve run to get Greene, Mason, Selden their ‘3looks’. Next, mix in the obvious cases of guys just “making a play”, like late-possession 3att like Mason, Graham, or Sherron (vs Willie Warren)… I know its been argued that there’s a quick-hook for an early possession 3miss, and Greene’s a good example. So there’s many different types of 3 looks, some good, some bad, ALL requiring judgement + a bit of swag/cojones.
But all the other factors that make an offense click, I just dont think we can ignore. I know human tendency is to summarize, or simplify, but hard to do with a complex thing like Self’s offense. Such an interplay between post physicality, post success causing collapsing D, enabling kickouts, defensive intensity creating transition opps, shooters rhythm, and Self’s whole cornerstone of trying to make everything we do “high percentage looks” offensively, at the same time forcing opponent into low percentage looks…it all works together, one aspect feeding off another. The 3 shot is key, but it’s highest % look comes if it’s in rhythm, and not closely guarded. Trey Burke’s miracle 3 (or Chalmer’s), makes a nice story, and it takes a clutch kind of baller to hit that, but that is a different discussion than talking about 3pt statistics. Entirely diffetent concept and game situation (choice of offense vs no-choice desperation).
Again, consider Sherron’s 1-for-6 3-shooting that felled us vs UNI. Cant tell me that kid had any pucker factor, as I never saw that in his whole 4 yrs, & I saw enough swag in him to even defy Self…and Self loved it. And thought he had another such persona in Selby, but Selby wasnt really coachable, it turned out.
We also saw senior Tyrel Reed go 1-for-7 from 3 vs VCU.
Folks, these were trusted greenlight senior shooters…Sherron being called “pure” by many of us from day 1 as a frosh. So to see 2 whole KU seasons END at the misfiring hands of some of our best 3 shooters, just maybe reinforces the idea in Self’s head that ‘too much reliance on the 3 is fools gold’? History and stats has taught Self how to keep the 3ball in perspective. Personally, Im all for adjusting the offense & tweaking things to fit personnel, but I’d never expect us to go so far as Hoiberg’s outside-in philosophy. Interestingly, we could also ask Hoiberg himself right about NOW his end-season thoughts? The other horse’s mouth, so to speak. Notice, without their tough-ass guard Deandre Kane, see what happened.
Defense travels…with a poised team. When we dont bring our D, we cease to be even our own coach’s philosophical product. We became just a bunch of athletes going 1on1 vs a veteran system that WSU had…very similar in philosophy to Self’s ideas. This is why I like Marshall, other than his KU-hate…he’s doing what Self already has done many times over, but he’s doing it with Jr’s & Sr’s, while Self is laboring with the 8th youngest team in Div1. Our only Sr is a walkon bench guy. ALL the things we cant do well or consistently, is the same things that better Self teams could do.
Final point: yes I do think recruiting the “correct” guys is an absolutely VITAL factor, and after the evidence of 2 of “Self’s worst teams” (although still top10 squads), I think OADs simply are NOT for Self’s system. Better off with top11-70 ranked guys (as before), and keep pipelining such guys, so next-man-up is ready to perform. We give up too much adjustability & toolkit variety to go with a frosh lineup, or even a frosh+soph lineup. And there is even some maddening complexity thete: not all MickeyDs are the same. Look at Selden, Cliff, Ellis. Is Ellis even better than 6’8 Robbie Hummel was? Love his recent play the last 5-6 weeks, but he cant do it alone. But Ellis as a Junior is only now approaching what 6’8 Marcus was as a Jr…each player takes his own timeline…and thats a complex thing, too.
I just dont think it does justice to any sort of failure-analysis to say “lets shoot more threes”. What about the pisspoor D in each of these 1 game elim losses: uni, vcu, wsu? What about the t.o.'s? WSU did all these parameters better, not just Evan Wessel hitting unguarded 3s. I love shooting unguarded 3s, but when you cant stop the other guy from scoring, what does it turn into–>a Roy Williams track meet game? Well, when has that ever been KU. We arent Royball, nor are we HoibergBall. Notice Roy still in tourney due to tough paint play, ncaa-leading pts in paint, unlike past Roy teams at unc. Its a mix of the players you get, and the system you put them in. Plain and simple, our system needs MichSt style tough bigs. Junkyard dogs. If Cliff returns, & ncaa lets him play, he’ll become one. TRob was one. Withey was in the Ellis category, they can, but its not natural. EJ, as a guard was the same way, unlike Tyshawn, Sherron, RussRob.
And Self has never said anything directly disparaging about Sherron’s 1-6 vs UNI, or Reed’s 1-7 vs VCU…he was OK with those 3att, as they were in the flow of the offense…he’s always been ok with that. Its all about context & setting a mental identity. Self thinks, as uni & vcu proved, that even your best 3 shooters will have off days, so you cannot cornerstone off of such a thing. Even Ray Allen is a 45% trey lifetime shooter, while ncaa young college post players are high40’s, 50’s %. And fouls on opposing defenders do mount up & cause issues in the 2nd half. Its all related- cant just be about the 3. Looking for a simple answer when no such thing exists. A lot to ponder, and yall have 11 yrs of data and various ku players & teams to consider. Not to belabor, but we had 3 major fails against VCU, and bad 3% was only 1 of them (bad D and t.o.'s were the other 2). Now count the ku-fails vs wsu, I count several. Tape doesnt lie, as Self says. Why do you think Self had that wry smile late vs wsu…because he knew we were 3-4 ways broke, & his team simply didnt have it to change their identity, because, gee, that’s not even fully formed yet. Blame Self for not having “them ready”, but it gets complex there too: cant magically give upperclassmen’s mentality & experience to frosh+sophs. Critical mass better this year, but no where near the 08 guys. What do you think the 08 guys would have done to wsu’s 2x 6’7 paint guys? Focusing on 3balls is a distraction from the (several) problems the '14-15 Jayhawks have. BigXII-best 3% tells you 3shooting is the LEAST of our problems. How about fixing what actually lost us most of our games?
DoubleDD Banned last edited by DoubleDD
All valid points. However there are two things you hit on, that kind of make my point (even though for the most I think we are on the same page).
College basketball is changing. Unless the NBA changes their stance on allowing kids out of High School 3 to 4 year players will be mostly be an anomaly. Well unless they just love college to much, won’t fall for the get the money now, or they’re just clue guys. So that means a school like KU will be turning over its lineup almost every year. Meaning that every year new players well be expected to learn a new and difficult offense. You said yourself HCBS plays a difficult offense to learn. Don’t get me wrong I love the High/Low as much as the next KU fan. However this year really opened my eyes to the real success of HCBS’s High/Low system. His system not only needs a scorer but someone that can pass in the paint. It just wasn’t there. Though I think us KU fans maybe underestimating Lucas.
I know you’ve heard me more than once on the issue of the three. Yet as you said it yourself KU players can shoot the three if it’s open. That’s kind of my point, and why I’m a bit upset with HCBS’s coaching this year. You who has played the game (and so have I) know as well as I do if something isn’t working you try something different, or at the very least tweak what you’re doing. Yet time after time KU comes down on offense and tries to pound the ball inside. No sets to run a three shot. They only come if all else fails
The game is changing and if HCBS is going to recruit as he has been. Then I think he needs to reinvent himself. Play to your strengths. Trying to teach a High/Low to kids that are gone after one year doesn’t make sense to me, but hey maybe I’m wrong and HCBS goes onto win the next two or three championships. If so trust me I’ll be on here preaching that I was completely wrong. Yet I’m afraid for HCBS and the KU program. The last couple of years have been far from just disappointing.