Self: 3 trifectate best/Brannen best trey so far/Conner guards now/7 Perimeter guys won't play/Red Shirting Now Unspoken

  • Thus Sprak Selfathustra…

    Conner, Brannen and Svi are the team’s kings of trinities.

    Brannen has shot it the best.

    Conner has learned to guard.

    Self will not play 7 perimeter guys in the rotation.

    And this time he does not mention, um, RED SHIRTING.


    Devonte, Mason, Oubre and Selden are four perimeter players already in the rotation.

    Ellis, Alexander and Mickelson are three bigs in the rotation inside.

    That’s a seven man rotation.

    Brannen, Conner and Svi are fighting for one spot.

    Last season Self tried the committee approach of pulling guys after missed shots and no one ever got in a shooting groove.

    This season he is appears to be picking one eighth man.

    Let’s see.

    Conner can shoot it.

    Conner can play some 1.

    Conner can play some 2.

    Conner can guard some.

    Conner is in the lead to be given the 8th spot.

    Conner should get about 3 games to show he can do the job.

    If he fails, Brannen gets the next three games.

    If he fails, Svi gets the next three games.

    Winner take all this year.

    The only question remaining is does someone take a rouge smoking jacket?

    Self said no one gets thrown one, but that could have been just for the period of holding feet to the fire.

    But the real fly in the ointment is this: most of the best teams last season had 3 top guns from trey starting, or 2 starting and one coming off the bench.

    No doubt Self has to play the OADs and TADs to keep the OAD spigot open.

    But very soon after early signing period, when the defenses start not even guarding the trey stripe at all, because no one takes Frank, Devonte, Oubre and Selden seriously from treyville, one has an inkling that two of Brannen, Conner and Svi joint the rotation.

    And if either Devonte, or Frank, struggle with defense, protection, or making the easy play, all three of the trey guns could well join the rotation for good.

    In today’s game, treys don’t talk, they shout!

  • @jaybate-1.0 my wishful thinking is Greene, kid can shoot, has to improve D!. He’s fast and can jump(ksu game) oh and height

  • @jaybate-1.0 My hope is that Svi is the odd man out and that Greene and CF can battle it out for minutes. Seems like at Svi’s age it would be great for him and KU if he can get a year in the system before we ask too much of him. Not sure that a red shirt would make sense for him though since there has already be discussion of him leaving for the NBA after 2 years. Do we really see anyone getting a redshirt? Could CF or Greene have an AW3 type sophomore year?

  • @jaybate-1.0

    Ellis, Alexander and Mickelson are three bigs in the rotation inside.

    I have been saying all along that Mickelson will get PT over Lucas; however, based on Coach Self’s recent comments, looks like Lucas is farther ahead and in the lead for PT over Mickelson. BTW, where does Traylor fit? He is the guy that brings energy (according to the players) and no way he is left out.

  • @JayHawkFanToo no way is right! Guess we will wait.

  • I don’t follow some of the speculation/reading Self’s mind/reading Self’s comments closely enough to understand, but, why is Devonte considered part of the rotation already? I thought he wasn’t considered a sure thing for PT.

  • @jaybate-1.0 I thought a better title to the post might have been, “Three point shooting is NOT for suckers.” But what do I know …

    The three point shooting thing is something I remain concerned about to a degree, but I’m optimistic. It’s your last sentence “In today’s game, treys don’t talk, they shout!” — yes, they do; but Self usually ain’t listenin’. Or at least, ain’t prioritizin’.

    Self said just a few days ago – "I don’t know how well we can score inside,” Self said. “We’ve always been a team that played to angles and got easy baskets where you didn’t have to go through defense. That’s always been what we’ve done. It doesn’t look like it’s coming near as natural as what it has with some other teams so far.”

    Does that not sound like a team that might benefit from stellar three point shooting? Sometimes, you have sacrifice other areas a bit. This team has two guys that can ring the three point shooting bell at 40%, that have one year of experience under their belts. CF and Greene are the two guys that do it right now. And it is amazing to see how a team that hits the the three opens up the floor.

    Really, if you have the possible problems getting the ball inside, the perfect elixir is three point shooting. Playing outside in. If shooting is your strength, play outside in. If post play is the strength, play inside out. The strength creates better opportunity to improve on your weakness.

    I don’t expect us to struggle from three. It sounds like either CF or Greene will be in the rotation. Both of those guys are 40% shooters just waiting to happen. I think that Mason will be a competent three shooter. He shot 32.7% last season which was a percentage point better than CF. Selden shot 32.8% … literally the same as Mason. I think both Mason and Selden will be 5% improved. I just have no idea how Graham and Oubre will react. As others have observed, particularly regarding Oubre, their competence behind the arc will tell the story.

    The other key is the dreaded quick hook. If CF gets on the floor and misses his first two attempts, Self has to resist the urge that seems encoded in his DNA. Let the shooters shoot. Miss two, hit three in a row. Miss four. Make four of five. That’s how it works. Embrace it and reap the rewards.

    Here is my biggest concern – that Oubre can’t hit the three. That could throw a big anchor around our offense. Seems like Oubre will contribute other positives. We need the threes.

    A couple other rotation related comments by Self over that last few days that I’m sure many have seen:

    1. Self said that Mason, Ellis, and Selden were the three best players.

    2. Mason stood out because of his scoring ability.

    3. Graham could be the “starter” by midseason or before.

    4. Self was “non-committal” as to whether Greene would factor into the rotation, according to Rustin Dodd/KC Star.

    5. Self said his perimeter rotation would 5, or “6 at times.”

    6. Self said “how we start the season, I guarantee it, won’t be how we finish it.”

    All support @jaybate-1.0’s rotation inference on the perimeter.

    In the post, though, I noticed @jaybate-1.0 left out our energy man Traylor. Does Mickelson really displace Traylor?

  • I agree with the posts above - good outside shooting is the best way to allow the inside game to open up. Last years team would have benefited so much from outside shooting and probably lost at least three games because the lane was not open.

    Fortunately, it appears as though Self is wanting to put his best shooters on the floor, but the shooters must first improve their all around game, and it sounds like CF and Greene have.

    I know I have talked about this in many of my posts, but I feel as though it needs to be said again. After watching UConn’s games against Florida and Kentucky, it is so obvious that their defense was at a different level than the other teams in the final four. They were aggressive and intense, got steals, but complimented all that with perimeter shooting. From what Self has said early on, defense and intensity will be much less of a problem this year, so I am not very worried about that. What has me concerned is shooting. Have CF and Greene improved enough to stay on the floor in order to find a rhthym to make those shots?

    Making shots will definitely be the key to make it to Indianapolis this year, and we certainly have the guys to do it.

  • @DinarHawk I think if it was just their shooting, CF and Greene would be out there. But, that’s not what’s keeping them out there. He wants them to be players, not just shooters. I agree, I want to see some D this year that leads to some transition bb.

  • Always interesting to read Self’s comments after practice starts and it is fun to try and read between the lines. Everyone has done a good job. I won’t even try. I will say that he often makes comments similar to the one he made about Graham starting by mid-season and it often does not materialize. Obviously, part of his comments are meant to motivate players in a certain way. I think, as many have said, that Svi and either CF or Greene will be the odd men out on the perimeter.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    I am starting to think that the 3-point shooters at KU look better on paper than they do on the court. Remember last year when we thought we had a bunch of players that could shoot the 3? Well, most of those did not pan out

    Last season the best 3 -point shooter on the team was Ellis (.471), followed by Tharpe (.377) and then Wiggins (,341), and Ellis did not shoot enough from the outside to be considered an outside threat; I am hoping that he will do more outside shooting this season. BTW, only Ellis is coming back. I understand that arguably the best two shooters on the team are Frankamp and Green but it does KU no good if they cannot get playing time. Green shot .333 from 3 but he made only 10 of 30 while racking up 15 TOs and getting burnt on defense so much that his nickname should be “toast;” these numbers will not get you time in the rotation. Since the '08 team, we really have not had a team with strong, reliable 3-point shooting; it has been pretty much hit and miss and we have depended on inside scoring, which is Coach Self’s preferred approach anyway, With out lack of size inside, the outside shooting becomes more important and I am hoping that Selden and Oubre will be the outside shooters since I am not sure how much playing time Greene and Frankamp will get. Svi is a big unknown,

  • @JayHawkFanToo I would certainly hope “toast” has been working on his D! He’s got such a smooth stroke.

  • @wissoxfan83 I can’t see hcbc crowning him just yet. Only OADs have been golden in recent years. “Prove yourself then we’ll talk” says Bill .

  • Self is talking a lot in hopes to inspire his young guys to all hustle for PT.

  • @JayHawkFanToo I’m a big fan of three point shooting (obviously). But more than anything, this season, I want us to have a Bill Self-type team. Play his style. Do what he wants done. Grit, tough, defensive minded.

    I am more convinced than ever that the kind of team some of us want can certainly be successful, but the type of team that will ultimately be the most successful under Self has to take on the character he wants.

    You hit it on the the head … Selden and Oubre better shoot it. They’ll be playing. I am very optimistic that Mason can shoot it at the rate Tharpe did last season 37%. But I also think that either CF or Greene will snag some significant minutes.

    Since @jaybate-1.0 mentioned red-shirting, I don’t think anyone will. The only way it makes sense is if a player believes he’ll be a five year player here. Meaning, no going pro early and no transfer. Svi, CF, and Greene don’t fit that bill.

    And on Greene, I guess my defensive eye isn’t as acute as I might believe. I did not see a guy who was horrific, nor did I see a guy who didn’t give effort. Good? No. But not Tharpe bad, for example. When there was mention of Greene’s defense, I paid attention to Selden very closely the next game. To be honest, I found Selden to be only marginally better. I posted about it at the time. I thought there were times when Selden loafed, when he was out of position, and when he screwed up screens. But Self knows what he wants on that end of the floor.

    Me, I’d play zone.

    But look, if Greene doesn’t buy in, doesn’t play hard nosed D, and doesn’t give the requisite effort on the defensive end, I want no part of him in the KU rotation under coach Self. I learned my lesson with Tharpe.

    If Greene has a misstep, my bet is he’s done. Self will move on to Svi. I bet he’d be comfortable with Svi at the three next season, and starting Mason/Graham, with CF and a guy like Dorsey off the bench.

    But I’m not counting Greene out at all. Heck, I think when all is said and done, he could lead us in three point shooting and could end up starting. Kind of like CF.

    By the way, Self talks about Greene’s defense and buying in, but take a look at who is a projected lottery pick in the 2016 NBA mock draft –

  • @HighEliteMajor

    RE: Jamari Traylor

    Big faux paux oversight on my part regarding Jam Tray. He has to be part of the rotation. He has explosive athleticism and toughness, plus late last season he was starting to show some offensive moves. If Self wants to be a great defensive team this season without a rim protector, then Jamari has to be part of the act, because great defensive teams require guys that can explode out of position to make defensive plays.

    But the guy is only 6-6. As a frosh he backed up at the 5 rather unpersuasively. As a soph he backed up at the 4 and grew into the role in a solid way. As a junior, who knows where he shows up, except that he and Self are like adopted son and father on a psychic level. What does that mean? It means that coaches will ask their sons do do things they wouldn’t ask other players to do, to fill gaps and play out of comfort zones they just would not ask other players to fill and play. At the same time, coaches DO find roles for their sons, adopted or otherwise. Tyler may not play in games, but he’s got a role on this team. Jamari is athletic enough to play and so he has a playing role. What it will be though is not yet clear. He is good enough at this stage to start, but because of this relationship business, Self could easily ask him to provide energy off the bench and wait till next season.

    But, just between us, I have to confess that I am feeling a little bit of that “be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.”

    More than once during this off season I have harkened back to Self’s great Elite Eight Tulsa team and Wooden’s small ball, er, low ball ring team. Self’s Tulsa team bore an eery resemblance to the Wooden’s first ring team in the way it moved, passed, offended and defended. Wooden’s first ring team was famously all 6-5 or under. I believe Self’s Tulsa team had some 6-6 to 6-8 guys at the posts. But I recall some pressing by Tulsa and I recall an X-Axis emphasis of muscular sliding with hands wide on defense and 45 degree angle cuts and lots of efficiency of motion.

    I am beating around the bush here.

    6-6 Jam Tray = 6-5 Fred Slaughter.

    Explosive athleticism in the 5 = explosive athleticism in the 5.

    Yes, I know Cliff is going to start at the 5, but he is probably going to foul a lot until February.

    I know Hunter, or Landen, are going to see action at the 5, but if someone is going to talk about small ball as much as Self has talked about it, and if Self wants to craft a team starting now for March, and if OAD Cliff’s muscular athleticism has to start as part of keeping the OAD valve open, then who is most like muscular cliff to come in when he gets fouled up? Some committee of Landen and Hunter, or Bam Bam in Slayr-ese.

    How tough does Self want to be. If he wants to be as tough as this team can possibly be, then Bam Bam has to come at the 5, when Cliff gets fouled up. And Bam Bam has to come at the 4 when Ellis gets blue meanie syndrome. And when Self needs more scoring out of the 4, than Bam Bam can give them, or more trifectation out of the 3, or 2, than Selden/Oubre can give them, then Bam Bam has to slide to the 5 and either Oubre, or Selden has to slide to the 4, and one or two of Greene/Conner/Svi has to come in.

    What I’m saying here is that depending on Cliff’s foul prone-ness, and how TOUGH Self wants this team to be, this team really could turn into Marine Raider Team Jayhawk with a bunch of 6-4 to 6-6 take no prisoners types scoring and defending “anyway it takes” Marine Raider style.

    And this could look very much like UCLA in 1963-1964, and Tulsa in 1999-2000.

    In fact, let me cut to the chase.

    Here is the blue print for the 2014-2015 Jayhawks: the 1999-2000 Tulsa Hurricanes.

    6 guys played 30mpg.

    5 were from 6-0 to 6-7.

    One 6-10 guy rotated in.

    All but one starter shot 50+ treys for the season.

    Back to the Future.

    He might play 9 for awhile.

    But he’ll probably cut it to 8 of the hardest noses that survive.

    I don’t know. But Self won’t hesitate to go small and stay small if those noses are the hardest. And he probably won’t hesitate to let the trey ball fly even among the sub 40%ers.

    @HighEliteMajor, you want a Self team?

    I think you’ve got a bun in the oven here.

    P.S.: If Brannen buys in on the defensive end, Conner is a serious red shirt candidate. Self already says Conner can guard adequately now. If Conner were to spend the next year muscling up and adding 10 pounds, he would be very much worth having around 5 years.

  • @jaybate-1.0 I love Jamari-everyone knows that. I think him and Cliff will be playing together some, at least I hope! He also needs to stay out of trouble!!

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    Man love is a 21st Century thing.

    Bill is a creature of the red clay 20th Century.

    Love means never having to say you are sorry to a romantic interest in Stillwater and Edmond.

    In basketball, nose hardness seems back in session this season in Lawrence on the Kaw.


  • @jaybate-1.0 do you always have to be so… So weird!!!

  • @jaybate-1.0 And is it coincidence that Self talks about playing with two, small playmaking guards more – after Self saw the last two national champions start small guards (Louisville - Siva/Smith; UConn - Napier/Boatright) all 6’1" and under?

    I’m all in with the idea of playing small. I love it. But …

    But, you can’t play Self ball and play small effectively (most of the time).

    Playing small means you post up based on MUAs (match up advantages, for the uninitiated).

    Playing small means you have to be open to playing zone.

    Playing small means you have to ensure that shooters are on the floor.

    Playing small means that you have to implement strategic use of a press.

    Playing small means that you play outside in.

    Playing small means you play faster, and faster means you have to tolerate more turnovers.

    Is any of that a part of Self’s “system”?

    It’s the anti-Self system.

    Would I like Self to tweak his system?

    Uh, yea … you could say that.

    But there have been situations where moving outside of his “system” was really the only answer. Yet, Self kept choppin’ wood. We weren’t winning a national title last season with Embiid out, and playing “inside the box.” As result, we went quietly into the night.

    Self saw Andrew White have a stellar game against Belmont as a “pick and pop” 4 – 15 points – in 2012-13. Never saw it again.

    So why would Self do it now? I don’t think we’ll see Oubre/Selden at the four except for the briefest of stretches. We’ll remain (painfully) conventional.

    The reason I think is the exact reason why Self won’t press. Self said in a recent press conference that the team needs an identity that will work against all opponents. So he doesn’t want to press (a gimmick in his mind) against some teams, and not others.

    I think ultimately that’s why he doesn’t play small ( a gimmick) even when it might be the most logical approach.

    Thus my preference that he play the guys that fit Self-ball. Let’s maximize Self’s system. Forget the other stuff.

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    From you weird is the octessence of compliment. 🙂

    Right wing politics are not politics at all but rather Topo Gigio blue fedoras made from George Balanchine’s prima ballerina tutu remnants. 😉


  • Back fill here, please.

  • And here, please.

  • And, well, you know the drill. 🙂

  • @jaybate-1.0 rat foreskins??? Ewww

  • @HighEliteMajor

    You have raised Self’s conservatism persuasively on a number of occasions. Even got me thinking seriously about it.

    Now, after having studied the roster of his 32-5 Elite Eight Tulsa team in 1999-2000, wherein he played very, very small ball AND had 5 of his 6 man rotation hoisting treys, even when they weren’t great trey shooters, I want to get you to think about and try to explain what the difference is between the Self of 1999-2000 and the Self of 2014-2015. Is there a difference? Is he inflexible, brilliantly flexible, or moderately flexible?

    Clearly, Self was willing once to play small ball when forced to by his talent. But he did more than play small ball with that Tulsa team. He turned it into a trey balling flying circus with an absolutely miniscule rotation. That was way outside the envelope of that time in college basketball. That was the time of XTReme Thug Ball Version 1.o. That was the time of the Wisconsin-Michigan State national championship slugfest in which both offense and defense were reduced to forearm shivers, plus blocking and tackling. Mateen “the meat cleaver” Cleeves was the poster boy PG of the era. And yet Self went 180 opposite the trend that season. He went with five trey ball triggering short and athletics that guarded their hearts out and became superb at 70 point take what they give us played up and under.

    Then he went to Illinois and played a bunch of Lon Kruger’s residual muscle men, and tasted Ratso Izzo’s brass knuckle sandwiches and other forms of Big Ten maul ball, and really got queer for adapting the Iba hi-lo aka Dean’s and Larry’s Xcellent Adventure in the Carolina Passing Offense aka Eddie Ball into an XTReme Muscle hybrid. If you let us run a way from you we will. If you force us to muscle with you, we will. And so on.

    Then he gets to KU and rides a short wide body post, a 4 on steroids, in Simien to the Elite Eight.

    Then he gets serious about signing length, and gets catholic about the hi-lo basics: stretch the D with open look 40% trey shooters combined with a wide variety of long bigs.

    The long bigs are where Self has been the most brazen in trying the outrageous IMHO. They range from two stretch 4s playing 4 and 5 in the Morri, to pairing an undersized rim protector in Mad Stork Cole and stretch 4 Marcus, to pairing a no offense footer rim protector Withey with an inverted pyramid fore arm smashing dunk machine in TRob, to pairing rim protector Withey with perhaps the greatest anomaly in the history of college basketball–6-7 180 power forward KY. And don’t forget that the ring team played a 6-8 power forward at center, a 6-9 shooting forward at power forward, and a 6-10 260 Ruskie back up center without knees that could neither rebound, nor score.

    This constitutes perhaps the most extraordinary clinic in exploring the varied approaches to playing an offense I can recall. Maybe Wooden tried more variations on his high post, but even Wooden jump shifted when he had Jabbar and Walton to the low post offense.

    Compare the variety of Self’s approaches within his hi-lo to the rote sameness of Cal’s teams within the dribble drive offense at Memphis and UK. Cal seems never to change a thing about how they play the dribble drive offense and the defenses never change either.

    Compared to Cal, Self is like Picasso morphing into yet another virtuoso form of hi-lo every couple years. Talent seems to hugely dictate how Self plays his hi-lo, where as Cal lets the dribble drive dictate what his conveyor belt of Mickey Ds do. Ball screen, dribble drive, create. Ball screen, dribble drive, create. Throw it inside. Repeat.

    Cal just keeps letting Nike feed him Mickey Ds and lining them up exactly the same way and, regardless of the heights of the players at the positions year to year, they run the same ball screen and dribble drive isolations without change year after year.

    Self’s offenses have varied from into low block Simien turn and shoot, to mostly pick and role during Cole’s years. to stretch 4 and stretch 5 with trey ball wings out of the cradle endlessly stretching, to playing three short perimeter guys, to playing three long perimeter guys, to…well, you get the idea.

    We’ve seen him run the stay-on-the-spots hi-lo and the slide-off-the-spots hi-lo. Now he is talking about staying on the lines high lo, which inplies the possibility of a veering off the lines hi-lo, too.

    The only thing Self hasn’t varied much is relying on a half court defense, but even the way they have played half court defense has varied widely from XTReme Disruption in '08 to no disruption and just guarding the trey stripe and rim protection last season in order to win the FTA battle.

    How do we square our sense of his conservatism, which, as I have said, you sometimes make persuasively, with all of this extraordinary variation within limits in his career?

    Since adopting the dribble drive offense, Cal doesn’t vary at all. He’s like Old Faithful. Watch Derek Rose, then watch Marcus whatever his name was on the Davis ring team. The almost the identical dribble drive actions. From CDR to Kidd-Gilchrist. Not a speck of difference in the dribble drive offensive sets and actions they are running.

    What exactly does Self’s conservatism mean, when he so dramatically morphs the hi-lo every season or two?

    I keep coming back to extraordinary variation with limits to describe Self.

    So: its apparently the limits that make you find him conservative.

    Not sure if you find Cal as conservative as I do. Cal is progressive in recruiting alright, progressive perhaps to the point of never knowing what is being done wrong by alums in his behalf. But in terms scheming? That would be no. He adopted a new offense from a high school coach; that was fresh. But since then, the names change but what is done with the offense seems to stay the same.

    And Self is very quick to steal from what works for others, at least from that which can be integrated into his hi-lo system in pieces.

    And he also pioneers things, like let the other team set the tempo, that guys like Calhoun, with Ollie at his side assisting, essentially copy completely.

    What UConn did the last few years under Calhoun and then Ollie last season really comes out of Self Ball. It appeared to me that LB had been coming to Self’s practices the last few years and then tutoring Ollie on what Self was doing a couple years back and passing it to Calhoun, as UNC assistant Larry Brown once learned the hi lo from Iba and passed it to Dean.

    May be it is the limits of NOT going to full time, full court zone pressing that makes him seem conservative to us at times.

    But there just was nothing conservative about the 2012 runner up team. It was sand bagging entire games for wins. What Tyshawn did was practically the prototype for what Shabazz and UConn did last season.

    Part of me worries that Self is not passing an eye test for maverick thinkers in today’s media culture.

    He is once conventionally WASP leading man handsome–classic square face structure, straight hair (plugged or not) and that mixture of handsome and a little goofy.

    He speaks with an Okie accent.

    He seems corporate jock/fraternity brother smooth.

    No Meadow Lands mousse like Cal, or whatever he is wearing these days.

    No ‘hood slangin’ like Ollie.

    No slick omerta schtick like Ratso and Slick Rick.

    No toos and pierced earrings.

    No Tom Ford skinny suits.

    No John Thompson 1.0 glasses, black suit, white shirt, black tie accidental allusions to the Nation of Islam and the honorable Elijah Muhammad.

    No red neck Bob Knight golf sweaters with a fishing pole in the back of the pickup stuff.

    No “I made it mamma” son of Polish immigrant and Army chic like K.

    (Note: I admire all of these styles of all these coaches past and present for their stylish idiosyncracies.)

    Do we have a basketball maverick and genius here in Self being obscured by the aging mayonaisse and wonder bread frat house look in the age of “whitey-gonna-be-a-minority-in-20-year” speak?

    Or do we have a bonafide basketball conservative and sports fundamentalist inflexible?

    Lay your thoughts down when you get a chance.

    Slug it: getting to know our coach and our eye prescriptions.

    We are sailing into harms way with a short fleet.

    We need to know our admiral.

  • Back fill.

  • @jaybate-1.0 Sorry I haven’t been around this week to jump in on all your threads, but I have been reading and trying to keep up.

    I think the scenario you have outlined here is right on. I feel like CF has been getting pushed with the recent comments from HCBS, and I think coach is putting out a lot of smoke screens with regards to talking up Graham and talking about moving Selden all over the court. My logic behind this is that, Mason and CF have been playing a lot on the court at the same time together in all the scrimmages this summer and late night. And quite honestly, from the bit of footage I’ve seen, they play well together. The team has a really nice pace to it when they are out there together.

    CF will get his shot and Greene/Svi will be ready to go if he fails. Another thing he has going him is he can backup the 1 and 2, but if Graham can stretch the floor then that’s also an option. But this team will need the floor stretched as much as possible to help the small bigs inside. Another thing I’ve noticed from all the scrimmage footage is that CF seems to have a knack for staying in and getting long rebounds, as well as, knowing when to leak out to be ready for the outlet pass on short rebounds. We always seem to get burned on the long rebounds, and this year especially, every rebound will count.

    As far as your other threads about Selden playing the 1 or 4, it seems to me that if HCBS wants to keep the OADs and TADs spigot open then he should play Selden at the 2 and let him sink or swim on his own. In other words, if Selden plays the 2 and can’t hit the 3 at 40%, then his draft stock is on him. If HCBS moves him all over the place and it hurts his draft stock then it’s on the coach, and may effect future recruiting. Personally, I think HCBS is very well hedged with the current roster to miss on a OAD 2 guard next year. I kind of hope he does because I want to see some of our depth get some pt.

    Now the question of “can Selden be a good point guard?” Well, a wise man once told me that “as long as he can make the easy plays and stretch the spandex…” 😉

  • @jayhawkbychoice

    Robust take.

    And I think you have hit on something important and rather inexcusably lacking in my analyses to date: REBOUNDING.

    The litmus test for perimeter play should include an advanced degree in carom-ology given short bigs, just as you say.

    Especially during stretches where our perimeter has mostly guys that are not 40% trey ballers, I would say your point takes on added gravity.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    I would not pay much attention to that mock draft; heck, most of the 2015 one and done have yet to decide where they will play and that will dictate go goes and who stays.

    As far as Greene, he played so little that many of his turnovers are amplified (some of his passes to the bench were real boners) since we have so little to go by. You are right, Coach Self has made it clear that he is going back to the style that has been so successful for him and it starts with hard nose defense. The change in the foul rules last season wreaked havoc with Coach Self style of play, but one season and one off-season later to adapt, I will guess that KU will go back to being a top defensive team first.

    “The team with a great defense coupled with a good offense will almost always defeat the team with a good defense and a great offense.” - Forrest Clare “Phog” Allen

  • @JayHawkFanToo dang did I hate how the rule interpretations hurt us!

  • @Crimsonorblue22 “do you always have to be so… So weird!!!”

    Jaybate is like going to a chinese buffet - you fill your plate with items you like, and you pass over the “octopus surprise dish”. Rat foreskin smack talk is ‘octopus surprise’… lol.

    BTW, the Crimson/Jaybate back and forth is the best on the board, imho.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    "@jaybate-1.0 I thought a better title to the post might have been, “Three point shooting is NOT for suckers.” But what do I know … "

    This forum has definitely become a virtual locker room… and I’m loving every second of it!

    What’s next, power push-ups? 😉

  • One comment has continued to ring through my head ever since it flowed from Self’s mouth:

    “It will be hard to keep Devonte out of this lineup, especially as the year progresses.”

    I’m guessing Self is talking about the PG position, but who knows… can Devonte swing on the perimeter?

    Two key definitions about Devonte will propel him into big time minutes this year:

    1. Leadership Skills
    2. Playmaking Abilities

    It would be great to add “Treyslayer” and “Solid Defender” to that list… but really the first 2 definitions will count the most to nail down serious PG minutes.

    The player I worry about the most is Frank. He is extremely gifted and can really become a factor for x-axis basketball… but I just don’t know if I see Self ever putting him at the 2. Maybe he will sometimes run Devonte and Frank together but shift Devonte over to the 2…

  • @drgnslayr

    I just don’t see Mason playing any position other than PG, maybe Graham but not Mason.

  • Interesting you bring up Mason … from Twitter, Seth Greenberg ,who was at KU’s practice yesterday: “Wouldn’t be shocked to see Frank Mason and Devonte Graham together. Mason has a little Allen Iverson in him.”

    He also said that Svi is the “real deal”, is "going to be special’, and has “feel, skill, length, toughness, needs strength.”

  • @HighEliteMajor

    I can see that but I would think that Mason at 5’11" plays PG and Graham at 6’2" plays either SG or combo guard but I do not see it going the other way.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    “Mason has a little Allen Iverson in him.”

    That is some major hype! Wigs didn’t even get that.

    I’m curious about the defensive skills of our perimeter guys. Who will be up for some d?

    @JayHawkFanToo - I’m almost certain Devonte would push over to the two. But what would be nice is to shove Frank over to the 2 on O and have him play PG on D. We may be treating our 1 and 2 about the same anyways… sort of like the 4 and 5… or should we just call them “left” and “right”?

  • @drgnslayr

    Coach Self is a creature of habit and while he might try different things, he will always fall back on whats is his bread and butter (Seth Greenberg notwithstanding) which is tough defense and the Hi-Lo on offense. I know that there has been a lot of talk of dramatic position changes, such as Selden paying anywhere from PG to PF, but other than using it as a gimmick, I just don’t see it being a permanent fixture.

    The following quote seems particularly applicable…

    ** “plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose”- Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr **

    “the more it changes, the more it’s the same thing”, usually translated as **“the more things change, the more they stay the same,” **

  • @drgnslayr No, Wigs didn’t get that-He got the comparison to Wilt which was about the most absurd thing ever, other than the amount of hype prior to arriving on campus & lacing up the Adidas.

  • @globaljaybird

    Ha… right… that was so absurd that I forgot about it!

  • @JayHawkFanToo

    I hear you.

    Last year Self changed quite a bit. We rarely ran the hi/lo. I recall about half the time we were trying to get the ball to Wigs and just left him alone to do whatever (drive and get fouled or lose the ball out of bounds). It didn’t seem to be an effective offense and definitely didn’t have the flow of his old hi/lo.

    I’m expecting we will see some hi/lo this year, but also other things. A lot will depend on Perry and Cliff and how well they can execute the hi/lo. Perry seems like he would rather step out and hit the J. He’s studying all the tape from the twins and how they created diverse scoring options, especially Marcus.

    Exploiting other teams via matchups shouldn’t be viewed as a gimmick… but I’m not sure that he won’t see it like that. I think Self paid close attention to ISU last year (and a bit from OSU) and it is giving him some ideas. Maybe… or maybe not!

  • Jaybate writes, “7 perimeter guys won’t play/Redshirting now unspoken.” I suspect that by February Greene or Frankamp will have wished for the opportunity to have snatched the red singlet. Tho, most probably, none was offered. After the Wiggins and Embiid recruitment and subsequent lottery bonanza, Bill Self is fairly well set for specific spot recruitment, at least for the near future. No need to burn a fifth year scholly on sophomores who arrived a year ago with superior upside, but did not quite cut the first year mustard in crunch situations. Given TIME, both Greene and Frankamp will probably develop into essential gametime contributors for Jayhawk hoops. Spot duty this season will tell lots about their potential for a junior red shirt or third year major playing time. Unless injury to other potential key players dictates otherwise, I predict that each of them is yet at least a year away.

  • @globaljaybird / @drgnslayr … ssshhhhh. @Crimsonorblue22 might be listening. I’m kidding …

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  • @REHawk

    Long time, no read. Good to see you are back at the keyboard. Your notion that Greene and/or Frankamp might redshirt in later years is very interesting. I have always thought early red shirting was kind of arbitrary. Thanks for kicking out a side of the box for me, Coach.

  • @drgnslayr

    Hype means never having to say your forget. 🙂

    God, I guess I am never going to get that stupid movie out of my memory banks.

  • @jaybate-1.0

    “octessence”??? You certainly mean quintessence, right?

  • @JayHawkFanToo I was thinking HerbalEssence…

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