Hypothesis: some aliases mostly post after KU losses, or misfortune...hmmm
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@jaybate-1.0 Watch our folks, he can only absorb coach bashing up to a point then
:facepunch: 
:facepunch:Itâs also best to back away when he goes to all CAPS.
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Howling!!!1
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@jaybate-1.0 I think that most of the aliases have migrated to here from the ââother siteââ. Hardly anyone posts there any more. maybe a good article will get 20 posts tops.
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@jaybate-1.0 People 30 years from now wonât be able to comprehend there was anything other than adulation towards Bill Self. It would be like bitching about Wilt Chamberlain in his prime.
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@KUSTEVE said:
@DoubleDD Coach Rat went 9 years w/o a Final FourâŠSelf goes 3 years, and weâre calling for his headâŠ
ExactlyâŠand to go a step further, Self is in his 13th season at KU
In his previous 12 seasons he has made the big dance every year.
And heâs has advanced to the Elite 8 or better in five of those 12 appearances.
But he hasnât done it for two seasons.
And we were 1-1 this yearâŠand the sky was followingâŠso out came the pitch forks and torches.
UCONN wins the title one year. Goes 0-1 the next year, misses the tournament the next two and then wins it again.
Plus they have four 14 loss or higher seasons in the past 12 years - not to mention NCAA sanctions - but people say theyâd trade our consistency for an extra title or twoâŠ
While at the same time coming out the other side of their mouth is verbiage that we have âonlyâ went 1-1 in the dance the last two seasons after making the title game twice in the prior six seasons.
Just my opinion, but I donât think KU fans would be happy if we missed 4 tournaments in 12 seasons. Regardless of whether we won three titles in that time or not.
We had we people b!tch!ng that we had 10 loss seasons in the last twoâŠwhile conveniently forgetting we also had the nationâs toighest strength of schedule in those years and did it with a very young and inexperienced team.
Unbelievable to meâŠbut to each their own, I guess.
And @jaybate-1.0 I so badly wanted to comment that you had put some cheese in the trap when I read your post early this morning âŠbut I didnât want to scare the away anyone that it might catch!
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I donât like it when we lose. Especially when it was because we shot ourself in the foot.
I get mad, I cuss and I ask why didnât we do this or that.
But I also know it is unrealistic that we will fire on all cylinders ever nite and by the next morning I have accepted that.
That being said, I make myself stay away from this site for a couple of days after every lossâŠb/c I canât believe the gloom and doom that will be here and the bad mouthing of our coaches and players that will take place by supposed KU fans.
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Come on people. MSU is likely the top team in the country. Of Course I donât like losing to anyone but there is no shame in losing to MSU, particularly when Valentine is/was playing out of his mindâŠwhich seems to the norm for him anymore.
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@JayHawkFanToo But MSU should not be #1 in the Country. We should have beaten them, Valentine or no Valentine. It was what we perceived as mis-guided hard headedness in our coaching decisions that led to the outcry.
Maybe the outcry helped Self realize, probably not more than the loss itself, that he needed to get his act together?
In any case, will be interesting to see how Diala changes the whole playing time situation.
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@Bwag I agree that our coach stuck/reverted to his system at the end of the game.
But he didnât miss a single bunny the entire game and he didnât leave his guy open for uncontested threes in crunch time.
If Maaon Graham and or Selden can just throw it in the ocean that game, we win by double figures, regardless of the game planâŠthey got tight and clenched up in crunch time as the lead was dwindlingâŠit happens. And it is not the end of the world when it does. Learn from it and move on.
But Self shouldnât shoulder the blame when his best players fail to execute. The teamâs play and his schemes had us up by 12 or 13 late in the game.
Not to mention that MSU is very, very good.
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You understand that under valuing MSU does not help your cause, right? They are still the team to beatâŠso far⊠They beat KU on that particular game but KU rebounded nicely, enjoy the current team and stop dwelling on one poor game.
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And the scary part is they did it with two of their best on the bench in street clothes with injuries.
If Izzo works his typical magic, they will be scary good by tournament time.
But I really like the trajectory we are on right now too. That loss seems to have been a pretty good wake up call.
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@SoftballDad2011 said:
I so badly wanted to comment that you had put some cheese in the trapâŠ
It seemed a no lose proposition at the time.
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Selfâs comments on Sparty
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Any one else find it unusual Self is speaking so favorably of the team?
Isnât this the part of the season where he is usually talking about how unfocused, how soft, how we are thinking too much instead of just playingâŠ???
What can / should we read in to this?
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Self has to know this team is full of guys who need help believing they belong at the top. Frank from Towson State. Jamari from abandoned cars. Perry and Wayne the canât miss 5 star and OAD that have hung around for years getting punked by opponents. Hunter the top 50 postman no one wanted after UArk. Devonte the kid who came in exchange for a selfie. Svi the all everything Ukraine Kid who couldnât guard over a pick in d-1. And so on. Diallo the guy they wonât even clear. Landen the 5 year project. Self has to keep pumping these guys up. They have chips and doubts.
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Chips are good. Very good! Drgslayr will be very happy to see that jaybate thinks these guys have chips!
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@SoftballDad2011 and @jaybate-1.0
Yea Coach rocks it in the regular season nobody can deny. Yet in the tournament Coach is nothing but average.
That my friends is just a fact. Yet I get it. Winning conference championships is more important than winning national championships.
And for some reason according to you two? The measuring stick is MSU? Not sure why but ok I always thought KU was the standard, but after reading your posts it seems KU has to measure up to MSU?
Iâll go on record as saying MSU didnât win that game but KU lost it because our coach didnât play to his teams strengths. Not that it will matter to you two. As MSU seems to be the standard.
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Be careful when you set a trap? The hunted might just be the hunter.
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@DoubleDD said:
Yet in the tournament Coach is nothing but average.
In statistics âaverageâ can be misleading. The important thing is the standard deviation.
Selfâs average is somewhere in the second weekend. Suppose he upped his average to Elite 8 but never did worse or better than that? Would that be better than a 3-1 record in the Final Four?
I think we should ask ourselves what exactly is the source of our miscontent.
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Is it not enough NCs? In that case early flameouts donât matter as long as we win another NC.
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Or is it too many first weekend losses?
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Or is it the way we lose?
Personally, I think with our seeds we should get to the second weekend, and Iâm disappointed when we donât.
As for the way we lose, I donât know which is worse: losing to Stanford when we shouldnât have, or losing to WSU when we should have. Then there was the âNutcrackerâ game against MichiganâŠ
Self gets another NC and he is the only KU coach in history with multiple NCAA championships. Then the early losses will be unimportant.
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I totally agree another National championship and all arguments become mute. Yet the fact remains as great as Coach has been in the regular season he has been just as bad in the tournament.
I mean ask yourself this question how many times has KU under Coach lost when they were the higher seed?
I love Coach and want him to succeed, and for the most part he has. Yet his tournament record isnât nothing to forget. After all KU is labeled as chokers in the tournament. Thatâs just not an opinion thatâs just facts.
I for one is hoping Coach turns the table this year. I really do.
As Iâm perplexed as a KU fan. Take me for what Iâm worth. Which isnât much.
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@DoubleDD said:
as great as Coach has been in the regular season he has been just as bad in the tournament.
That is an exaggeration, but I see your point.
I have a partial explanation that I keep repeating, but no one seems to pick up on it.
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KU has the best home court advantage in sports.
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That means in more than half our games we have an advantage that translates to extra wins and higher seeds than we would otherwise have.
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So every year we go into the NCAA Tournament overrated (especially by us)!
Our home field advantage inflates our perception of our worth, and makes our recent NCAA history appear worse by comparison.
This doesnât explain anything about Selfâs performance, but partly explains our perception of his performance.
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That is a very good point. Iâll have to think about that one. Even now Iâm like damn good point. Give me some time to think about that one. Yet even now I think you might have something.
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I believe Selfâs average is actually nearer to the Elite 8 than most realize.
In 12 seasons at KU he has taken the Jayhawks to the Elite 8 or farther on 5 occasions.
Two title games, three elite 8 exits, 2 sweet 16 exits, 3 round of 32 exits and 2 first round exits.
You hit on a very good pointâŠperception.
That perception âŠor expectationâŠentering each season for most of us is a final four⊠that is not realistic., so missed expectations at seasonâs end skew our perception of the actual success we did attain.
So when people view Selfâs body of work, they fixate on the two 0-1 seasons and/or the three 1-1 seasons to gauge his performanceâŠbut lose site of the deeper runs. Since that deep run was the expectation to begin with, it was not noteworthy. But an early exit is noteworthy because that was not the expectation.
He has a .711 win percentage in the tournament with his KU teams.
Measure his performance vs his peers instead of against unrealistic expectations and his success is more evident
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@DoubleDD said:
@SoftballDad2011 and @jaybate-1.0
Yea Coach rocks it in the regular season nobody can deny. Yet in the tournament Coach is nothing but average.
That my friends is just a fact. Yet I get it. Winning conference championships is more important than winning national championships.
And for some reason according to you two? The measuring stick is MSU? Not sure why but ok I always thought KU was the standard, but after reading your posts it seems KU has to measure up to MSU?
Iâll go on record as saying MSU didnât win that game but KU lost it because our coach didnât play to his teams strengths. Not that it will matter to you two. As MSU seems to be the standard.
I understand your point.
And no, I am not satisfied solely with conference titles. But there is nothing average about a âbadâ season that still included a conference title and invitation to the dance.
In regard to the measuring stick you say in one breath that we have been average in the tournament.
But in the next breath you chastise for using MSU as a measuring stickâŠstating that KU should be the standard.
WellâŠif you believe KU has been average when it matters most, then I would contend that Sparty isnât a bad selection for use as a measuring stickâŠgiven that Izzo has seven final fours to his credit.
I personally believe Selfâs post season success is a little better than averageâŠone of just seven teams to play in 2 or more title games since 2004 (if you throw in Royâs 2003 title game, we are tied for the most title game appearances since 2003).
But if that success is indeed average to you, then Izzoâs seven final fours isnât a bad measuring stick, is it?
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@DoubleDD said:
âI mean ask yourself this question how many times has KU under Coach lost when they were the higher seed?â
@DoubleDD - Would you agree that the overall #1 seed rarely wins the tournament?
The great thing about facing KU in the first or second round as a lower seed is that you are already playing with house moneyâŠand you have already exceeded expectations. That allows them to play loose and gives them a lot of momentum if they are able to stay within striking distance until the final 5 minutes of the game. Which at the same time makes that bullseye on our back all the more burdensome.
WSU is a notable exception, but in my opinion they were a better team than their seed gave them credit for.
It is a game we should have won. But that opponent was not a typical round of 32 matchup for a 2 or 3 seed.
For the record, I agree with you that MSU didnât beat usâŠwe beat ourselves.
Our difference in thinking seems to stem from my acceptance that they did find a way to win a game that they should have lostâŠjust like they did again this week against LouisvilleâŠand for that reason I have no problem in giving them their props for having done so.
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@ParisHawk You have raised a valid point regarding the home court advantage. With this in mind I wonder what Coach Selfâs record would have been if he did not play most of his home games at AFH. Would he still be sitting at .821? And, how much of this advantage has helped with our Big 12 streak.
Another valid point is how much of this home court advantage hurting KU in the tournament? Our players get so much used to having crowd as the 6th man when games are on the line & somehow pull out a W. But when facing similar situations on neutral courts are they prepared mentally to pull it off. I donât have an answer but I am wondering.
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Yeah but you build or maintain a home court advantage by winning. I know we all love Ku basketball and would go to any game and scream our heads off but the reality is most fans would not be as passionate about a team who disappoints at home.
I may be wrong but hasnât Self only lost 5 home games vs big 12 opponents? In 12 years?! Thatâs insane. That has to be wrong, right? Please someone tell me that is not true!
You can say that is proof that he has an overwhelming advantage at home and youâd be right. But the question is would the advantage be as overwhelming if he lost multiple home games a year?
Fans are fickle. Just check Kaufman stadium to see how winning makes a home field advantage not necessarily the other way around.
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If you think Self is not up to the post season challenge, you must think Cal and K really suck! They have squandered double or triple the opportunities with way more talent!
You must loath IZZO! Not a single lousy during ring Selfâs awesome run! IZZO hasnât won a ring since 1999-2000!
You scorn Cal and Pitino! They have both been to the NIT!!!
And this is just a raw, unadjusted comparison with Self.
Imagine if we took into account the increasing asymmetry in seeding and refereeing that Self faces in post season that these other coaches you must find competent donât have to deal with.
With their players, their seeding, and the refereeing they are getting apparently for the sake of eyeballs, betting and shoe sales, would Self ever NOT get to the FINAL FOUR? Would Self ever NOT WIN THREE RINGS OUT OF FOUR?!
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@jaybate-1.0 Iâm attempting to ignore most of the negative comments as they come from the same few aliasâs. You know who they are. I know something so assine will be posted that I have no choice, but to respond, but Iâm trying not to. Itâs already be discussed in length how Bill doesnât coach the style that certain posters on here would like to see. But I donât see any D1 programs beating down their doors. Itâs also be discussed in length about post season success. Bill has had more tourney wins in the last 10 years than anyone.
For all who care: http://johngasaway.com/2014/11/06/seven-teams-account-for-25-percent-of-all-tournament-wins-since-2000/
High points:
NCAA tournament National wins since 2000 titles since 2000-
Kansas 38 1
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Michigan State 36 1
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Duke 34 2
North Carolina 34 2
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Florida 33 2
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Connecticut 32 3
Kentucky 32 1
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I know thatâs more than the Self era, but it should put things in perspective. What do you have to complain about!?! Tis the season to be joyous!!! Quit your complaining and start singing the praise of these 'Hawks. If you canât bask in their glory, go be a Yankees fan, 'cause thatâs the only team winnin 25% of the National championships. Or be a Uconn womenâs âbasketballâ fanâŠ
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@ParisHawk Disagree. All great teams have great home court advantages, including Dook, UNC, Kentucky and the like. Hell, even the Clones have a great home court record. Unless you are Dook, and get to play 8 miles from your campus your first two games, everyone else is on the road in the tourney as well. No doubt we are dominant at home, but that doesnât pump our record up any different than any other top team, imo.
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Just to add, these are tournament wins by team in Self era: Duke 28 UK 28 KU 27 Louisville 26 MSU 27 UNC 31
No one else is close that I could find. So if you want to argue for Roy, maybe. But any other team? Nah. Sorry Iâm too lazy to figure out Cals wins separate from UK. He may have a few more since 2004.
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I will point out some obvious holes in this home court bias argument.
First, assume hypothetically that KU really is slightly better than other top teams. KU would win a higher percentage at home than UK or Duke, right?
Second, assume hypothetically that Self puts greater emphasis on winning conference titles than other top coaches, as so many allege here. Then KU would have a higher winning percentage at home over time, right?
Third, assume hypothetically that Self is more focused on overall winning percentage than on post season results, as some here allege. Then KU would have a higher winning percentage at home than the other top programs, right?
Fourth, assume hypothetically Self really is a better regular season coach than all the other top coaches but not as good in post season, as some allege here. Then KU would have a better home winning percentage, right?
I could go on, but the point is made.
These hypotheticals each posit plausible explanations for the higher winning percentage at home. They make as much sense as a building winning games, probably more, and I am among those that attribute some spiritual power to the place.
But here are the most plausible drivers of the phenomenon.
At different times in basketball history different buildings have housed different clusters of teams that gave that building the âhighest home court winning percentage.â Pauley Pavillion after its first five years absolutely held such a distinction. Then UCLA stopped being so good and Pauley was not so invinceable. Indianaâs arena was the best in 1976 I suspect. Now itâs not so invinceable a pile of bricks. The Dean Dome? Man, could it out defend and out defend Allen Field House certain years! And so on.
Building winning percentages are the result of play, not the cause of it.
Players feel more at home at home. Players feel less secure away.
Refs favor home teams.
AFH contributes nothing. KU fans contribute something. But fans quit contributing when the winning stops. See?
A program that wins a lot can enhance the home edge. For periods it can seem invincible at home.But itâs a constellation of factors driven by winning plAyers, and quality of opposition and so on.
UCLA used to be invincible at home. What changed? Pauley? Or the coach, players and fans?
Finally, having the best home court advantage overall means nothing in isolation. The amount of incremental advantage is crucial. I havenât looked, itâs probably small and itâs probably attributable variance at date of measure and the fact KU HAS BEEN INCREDIBLY GOOD FOR MUCH OF THE LONG LIFE OF AFH, certainly the last 25 years.
I can remember when Ahearn Field House had a stretch under Winter, Fitzsimmons and Hartman where it was allegedly a tougher place to play and win than AFH.
It depends on what time series slice you take.
But if it were true that arenas create more than money advantages, well, then bully for us and letâs research design to make the advantage even bigger. I want to win more and more games and conference titles, because they get you the best seeds!
1.) The keys to Billâs post season problems are:
2.) Not enough of the best players;
3.) Asymmetric seeding;
4.) Asymmetric officiating; and
5.) Bill.
The first four are huge in aggregate, but not much we can alter right now. They will take some time.
Bill has to keep getting better,which he can do and is good at doing. Wooden said it took them a long time to figure out how to win rings systematically, but when they did they got pretty good at it. Bill lucked into one early that Wooden did not. The early win may actually be impeding his learning. But he will get better and figure it out. But will he ever get the players K and Cal get
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@jaybate-1.0 BUT⊠BUT Self ⊠Likes⊠(Im about to puke it so hard to say his accursed name)⊠TRAYLOR!!!
Self. Has. GOT. TO. GO. Period. End of story
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You donât think I dream about coach getting the kind of talent that Duke and UK get? Oh yea, yes I do. Iâm not Bill Self hater by any means⊠Yet it seems to be we KU fans are always making excuse come tournament time.
Reality KU and coach are not a Nike school or coach.
Reality KU doesnât play in a great basketball conference (I donât think that itâs that bad myself).
Reality KU has under achieved in the tournament.
Reality itâs time to put up or shut up
Yet none of this really matters to me right now. I only engaged you and @SoftballDad2011 as you two seemed to mock and pass off those who were questioning whether coach should still be coach as lunacy and lunaticâs. And @dylans thought of, well if you know so much why arenât you coaching. Are you serious ???
To be honest after the MSU game I was hurt as a KU fan. Mad and sad as all be all. If felt worse than some of our early exits in the tournament. Yea I was questioning whether the game was passing Coach by. It doesnât mean Iâm a hater. I just care about MY JAYHAWKS.
Besides Coach has reinvented himself after that MSU game and has me believing again that this could be the year that Coach and KU bring home the trophy.
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Yea I would agree to a point that a #1 seed doesnât always win the whole thing. Yet would you agree that a #1 seed should at the very least make it to the final 4?
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It is never an excuse to talk about factual obstacles standing between you and victory.
In war, if you ignore factual obstacles you die.
In sports, if you do the same, you keep losing.
Get Self the OAD point guard and post man and watch the rings come!
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PHOF
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Factual obstacles are one thing but making excuse is another. If the allied forces made excuses weâd all be speaking German.
Besides we are talking about KU here. Itâs not like the roster doesnât have some very fine players.
I too have wandered what Coach would do with a OAD point guard.
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Self is more himself than ever after MSUâalways resilient and bouncing back and learning.
It is you who are changing and becoming like him.
That is the great good that can come from being a fan. We can learn from remarkable persons like Self.
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@DoubleDD That loss felt like someone had kicked me in the groin. I was furiousâŠmainly because we looked just like we did when we lost last year. Yet, it was probably was the best thing that couldâve happened to us as a team. Weâre not fat and happy - weâre lean and mean.
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@DoubleDD It might have been heading into the 2014 tourney, but as of then 18 of the last 25 title winners had been #1 seeds as I recall. i posted that back then. UConn was obviously not a #1 seed in 2014 but Duke was in 2015. So appx. 19 of last 27 title winners were #1 seeds. That 70%.
I donât know what it is regarding the #1 âoverallâ seeds back that far. But in the 10 seasons preceding the 2015 tournament, the overall #1 seed had made it to 6 of the 10 final fours, winning 3 of them (Florida 2006; Kentucky 2012; Louisville 2013). Four other title winners in that same span were #1 seeds ( (North Carolina in 2005; Kansas in 2008; North Carolina in 2009; Duke in 2010). Duke won last season as a #1 seed, as weâll, but wasnât the overall #1.
So 7 of the last 11 tourneys won by #1 seeds, with 3 of those being overall #1 seeds.
It is definitely the easier path as a #1 and being the overall #1 is better than not (as 3 title winners were overall #1, and 4 other #1 winners came from the other three #1 seeds).
And âchalkâ, obviously, is reaching the final four for any #1. Losing before the final four is an underachievement. Itâs really only winning three games to get there as the first game is a gimme.
Just as information, Kansas in 2010 was the only #1 overall seed to lose in the first weekend in that 10+ season time period I referred to above. I got to spend the entire day with my daughter â driving to and from OK City vs. UNI in the snow. A 17 hour day when all was said and done. So that still made it a good day nonetheless.
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Thanks for fighting the good fight jaybate.
I am happy to have Bill Self as our coach. I do not understand who people would want to replace him with⊠Coach K and Calipari are not comingâŠIzzo is not coming. Do they want some unproven young guy? One loss and that guy might be lynchedâŠ
Be careful what you wish for. Here in Nebraska they canned a perennial 9 win a year football coach, because of similar sentiments about competing for titles, then had a historically bad year, were 5-7, and lost to PURDUEâŠDo not be so entitled. Be grateful Kansas is your team and you have an elite coachâŠ
Coach Self may not be the best Xâs and Oâs coach, or the best recruiter, but he is good enough at both that he is in elite companyâŠOnly Coach K might beat him out factoring in both aspectsâŠ
Also, keep in mind the athletes are amateurs, I understand going after millionaire coaches, they deserve it. They are men, they are 40!! Let us lay off the kids a bit. If you ever played sports, you know sometimes you just lose. You get beat, it has nothing to do with lack of desire, or lack of preparation, or that you do not care. That is what is so appealing about sports, anything can happenâŠOnly ONE TEAM in every sport wins the title. Should thousands of coaches be fired every year across all sports?.
When we lose, I get down, I cannot watch ESPN for daysâŠI kind of go on a media embargo until the next gameâŠI get it, you are passionate fans. No reason to be internet tough guys about it. IF you are going to spout ignorant nonsense, go on a media embargo yourselfâŠ
Me, I do not quite trust Selden yet, but I root for him because he is our guyâŠWhy trample on these kids.
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I would agree that they probably should.
But in the history of the current format all four #1 seeds have only made it to the final four in the same season only once.
So while they probably should, it is highly unusual for them to do all do it.
Yes,you are correct⊠I think it is absolute lunacy for anyone to suggest that Coach Self should be fired.
And all I have done is support my case for why I feel that wayâŠjust as those who feel otherwise have done.
It is not personal and I havenât attacked anyone. , it is just a discussion which is the intent of the board. .
And by your own admission it sounds though you donât feel that way any longer anyway.
And no, I know nothing about coaching basketball.
Do have a lot of experience in administration though.
And I know you donât run off a coach because he is to stubborn to listen to fans on message boards and do what they want him to do.
Especially when he wins at a level that is in the top 5 percentile of his current peers.
I believe Bill Self is one of the top three or four coaches in the college game right now. And I want to keep him on our bench.
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Iâm hopeful. You donât have to be a coach or an expert on the game of basketball to see that coach was being stubborn in how he wanted to run his offense. Iâm hopeful because it seems Coach is reinventing himself, and running an offense that focuses on the three, thereby playing to the strength of his team. Losing is part of life, Yet how we lose is what we should focus on. Like why Coach underperforms in the tournament.
Yet it seems by some we canât have that conversation, because we as KU fans are never to question King Self. And if we do we are lunatics.
I too want Coach on the bench, but I also donât want to wait another 20 years for a championship either.
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If I were head coach and ultimately accountable for all facets of my program, I would be incredibly stubborn as well.
He has a system that he believes in and it works 82% of the time. And he relies upon it.
Itâs his bat, his ball and his rules.
If he starts losing consistently or looses control of his team then yes letâs send him packing.
Until then he gets to do it his way.
We can cuss it. Discuss it. And say what if.
I just donât think it appropriate to start calling for his head, given his history of excellence.
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@SoftballDad2011 Self has the magical formula âŠ500 wins + age 52 = MAGIC. In his primeâŠ
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I agree with you and posted pretty much the same thing a few days ago. All elite programs have a big advantage playing at homeâŠthis is why it is called home court advantage.
