February 11: News Headlines Digest
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Just lost a long post so heres the cliff notes version.
With no healthy Embiid KU has no rim protector.
No rim protector = 11 made layups for KSU in the second half.
No rim protector = 2nd round loss
Healthy Embiid = good shot at final four
Agressive Wiggins + healthy Embiid + Tharpe playing D + Ellis rebound and playing D = National Champs
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@DinarHawk I fully agree that we can make a run and will probably get a 2-3 seed. Maybe even a 4 depending on how many more games we lose and who we lose to.
The thing that I love about the tournament is exactly your point. Last year an 8 seed and two 4 seeds make the Final Four. Those teams just got hot at the right time. Michigan and Syracuse last year were both up and down but played their best ball in the tournament and like us had a ton of talent. Hopefully that will be the case with us this year and hopefully we will be healthy by then…especially Jo Jo.
After last night I assume we are out of the discussion for a 1 seed unless we win out and get a ton of help such as WSU losing, Zona, Cuse, Florida all losing, etc. My gut says we get a 3 seed. I know there is a ton of season left but my assumption is we lose another game or 2 and that a 3 will be fitting.
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@DinarHawk – “some need to lower expectations …”
I have to challenge that a bit.
Why did we bring in Andrew Wiggins? Why would we bring in such a complete and utter distraction? A guy that folks don’t even ask if he’s considering staying another year? A guy that has one foot out the door before he gets here?
The only reason is to win a national title. Not a “deep run.” To win a national title. Otherwise, it just isn’t worth it.
If I am to lower expectations, then I want no part of the Andrew Wiggins of the world. If I am to lower expectations, then I would rather play Andrew White and Brannen Greene and watch them develop – instead of the “for sure” OAD who has to be prodded to be aggressive. I can handle every “fault” I could expand upon with Wiggins if he were staying. But he’s not.
So, my expectations are a national title. Period. It’s not too much to ask. All we’ve heard is Wiggins this, and Wiggins that. His non-performance is a story.
When you say “enjoy the ride” – I can enjoy the ride like the 2011-12 season that you mentioned. The lower expectations.
But when you bring in an Andrew Wiggins and all that goes along with it, there is no ride enjoying going on for me.
We can still win the title, and I suspect as I did back when the season started that it has much more to do with Joel Embiid than Andrew Wiggins. But the title is my only measure of satisfaction this season.
And @DinarHawk – thanks for providing the me the fuel there to get that off my chest.
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@HighEliteMajor-Swish. Looks as if you just connected on 7 straight three’s. I understand your criticism is meant to be constructive & couldn’t agree more, especially about Greene, Joel, & Coach Self’s master-plan adjustments. I posted over the weekend that I thought Perry lacked the quickness at times to play D, but Franny did say he played the entire game till fouling out. That just makes the perspective about Wilt playing every minute of every game during the 72 (?) season more mind boggling. Oh, I forgot that Wilt actually missed 8 minutes of ONE game that year because he was thrown out by the refs. I don’t intend this mean spirited either, but some of these young, chippy, prima donnas need to take a damn long, hard, look at that stat & legacy, then take a gander in the mirror. I also am optimistic that some of coach’s disciplinary tactics will garner huge rewards further down the road. JMO
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7 man lineup vs 9 man lineup.
We (KU fans) would like to see Greene, Frankamp, Lucas, and White III play. If Bill played everyone the minutes would be split up pretty thin. So with a nine man lineup you develop depth and your bench. IF injuries or foul trouble happen in the tournament you have depth to compensate. IF a starter is cold you can put in a shooter.
With a 7 man lineup you develop good conditioning, chemistry, and everyone who plays gets a ton of game time experience. In the tournament there are so many tv timeouts that depth doesn’t matter that much. I know it’s countered some of the depth that Roy’s teams had. They would run you into the dirt in the regular season, but with a few extra minutes to suck air during timeouts the opponents overcame the depth disadvantage.
Personally I’d like to see a 7-8 man lineup. It means 5 guys are playing at an exceptionally high level and only need breathers. I’d hate to see KU go 10 deep because it means no one has separated themselves as being dominant and the core group will not be properly developed in time for the tournament.
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@HighEliteMajor Love these points. When you bring in the #2 recruiting class in the country and the #1 overall recruit and you have 3 McD’s All Americans in the starting lineup you have to have high expectations. I for one am tired of us hanging our hat on our Big 12 title streak. It is a fantastic streak and we should be really proud of it but I would much rather go to Final 4’s and cut down nets. We have the talent. We just need the will to win and I hope that we can get that between now and mid March.
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@HighEliteMajor No problem! I would like to touch on a couple of points that you made.
You say that because of Wiggins, you expect a national title. That is the type of expectation that I am talking about. Every season we expect so much and many times do not get it. I expected a Final Four in '10, '11, and '13. Each of those teams was in a position to get there and win the title. What I am saying is that disappointments almost always accompany expectations, though there are exceptions.
I am glad that you are not one of the doom and gloom people that says that the Sweet Sixteen is this team’s ceiling. That is wrong. The championship is this team’s ceiling. It is really just a matter of this team getting hot and understanding how to play better defense. Like joeloveshawks said above, Syracuse and Michigan got hot at the right time. No one thought that Wichita State would go to Atlanta last year either.
It is not a bad thing to expect a national title. I agree with you on that. But you have to know that titles are extremely tough to come by. For me, it just seems like whenever I lower my expectations for the tournament, there is less disappointment.
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@DinarHawk He’s saying that because of the investment in Wiggins he wants a national title. Not because of him he’s expecting one.
If you’re not looking for anything more than a nice couple of games in the tournament, you might as well develop guys that want the ball, that want to score and win games against a team like K-State. Wiggins’ minutes could go to any number of players. Might even force Tharpe to be more aggressive. You could see that when Tharpe wanted a shot last night, he created it like a surgeon. Navigated to the open spot on the floor and drilled the shot. When he’s just looking to be a complement to Wiggins, he’s not doing enough. It’s one thing if Wiggins is hot and can’t miss to look for him, but when we needed points, Tharpe needs to be the leader that he is.
And @joeloveshawks is exactly right. The Big 12 streak is great, but I’d trade any of them for a couple Final Fours or a couple national championships.
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@HighEliteMajor HEM, please don’t go off kickin’ at any gameside chairs over Wiggins’ slow response to calls for assertiveness. He is an 18 year old kid who bears lots of focus flaws to his game. Granted, he possesses extraordinary potential someday to rise to NBA All-Star success, what with his comparative freakish athletic skills. But, as we have witnessed from early on, his mental focus appears to demand constant proddings. Emotional intensity erupts only in long drawn out fits and starts. He has evolved into a very deep challenge for the coaching staff, and I don’t now foresee a quick personal turnaround regarding those flaws. Even so, he is the best 3-man the league has to offer, game in and out, a very rare feat for a freshman. Very gradually he makes adjustments on the learning curve. I concur with your criticism of his inclinations not to pass off to teammates when he lunges into traffic in the paint. Hopefully, by tournament time he will have added that adjustment to his physical game. For such a highly touted, highly skilled and physically blessed individual, he is a slow work in progress regarding upward development toward the complete player. You think we would really be a better squad with Greene or White playing that position for major minutes?
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@DinarHawk Right on – the sweet 16 is not this team’s peak. This team can win a national championship. A nice little six game run, a little luck in avoiding a physical team kind of match-up, etc.
@MoonwalkMafia – Correct on the clarification. What I like best about your comments is that Tharpe needs to shoot. Not be secondary. Not defer. But shoot. Really impressive is his development of that aspect of his game.
@REHawk - No, I’m not saying we would be better now with Greene or White playing. I don’t know. But chemistry is an interesting animal. So is a dead-eye three point shooter. Wiggins has significant attributes, but I don’t dismiss the possibility that we might actually be better come March if it were a White/Greene rotation at the 3 vs. Wiggins. But I don’t think that to be true necessarily. I am perfectly happy with Wiggins, but for the OAD status. Freshmen need to develop. Wiggins included. We just have this closing window as it relates to KU hoops. That I don’t like.
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I overreact at times, so here’s my overreaction to last night. We are Kentucky. We have stockpiled a bunch of draft picks who are using us to get to the NBA. I’m tired of Wiggins. I’m tired of Selden. I’m not tired of Embiid because he’s the only one of our supposed OAD’s who has actually looked like he is trying to help this team win instead of trying to impress the scouts in the audience.
Again, I overreact at times, ask my wife! so this is my overreaction from last night.
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Why is HEM reply to me show up looking as if I posted it. I’m confused. Having to access from small mobile device lately so maybe I’m not seeing everything. But it looks like Hem posted from Blown to Blown.
HEM. I just have gotten a sense this year that self is way more fluid with his lineup substitution than I have noticed in the past. It reminds me of the NBA when coaches exploit match ups more than sticking to same 5
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Btw I actually enjoy the expanded line up and felt certain we woukd gas ksu in the last 10 minutes due to our depth. Didn’t happen.
Losing to ksu is always a good litmus test of where my heart has always been.
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@Blown I think that looks like dylans who replied … not me; I see what you’re saying.
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@HighEliteMajor Speaking of Greene/White sharing the 3 position vs. Wiggins, is it again time for boardrats to express verbal wonderment regarding AW3’s benchtime? Perhaps, as Self has proclaimed, it is just a matter of a numbers game for our abundance of bench talent. But Self usually goes with experience vs. the newbies, other things being nearly equal. Maybe White did not recover from the hip pointer (groin injury?) fast enough to latch onto minutes back in the sub lineup before Greene and Frankamp began to show promise?
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@REHawk but, conners been out too???
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I’m blown away as to how accurate high elite major and jAYBATE were on their injury assessment before Self admitted it. Tried concealing it to prevent s slide in draft status? See Nerlens Noel for proof the injury wouldn’t have mattered. Playing him injured compounded the issue.
Brannen is a thief. 3 steals in limited time. Love it. We need him. Playing like this
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@Blown What does everyone think about Jo Jo’s knee? Is this really something that can be rested? Is he just banged up or is this basically an injury where he will play at 70% for the rest of the year? I unfortunately think he is truly hurt and won’t be the same this season. Certainly not trying to be pessimistic. Just a realist.
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@joeloveshawks the fact that his injury has lead to less production and even worse: another related injury it’s at least 4 weeks before he is back to normal. Pure speculation on my part. When I sprained my knee it affected me for 9 months before I was 100% I didn’t have the rehab and resources he will have though. He has clearly lost 15-20 percent of his quickness. This is not the time for Jamari to be getting benched. We win last night if he plays.
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When is the last time a defending big 12 champ or any conference champ for that matter stormed the court the following season? Probably never.
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“When is the last time a defending big 12 champ or any conference champ for that matter stormed the court the following season? Probably never.”
Well… to be honest, they were looking for football goal posts to rip out.
How about standing on the table?
You would have thought they won the Super Bowl. And to be honest… that was their entire season right there. They could make a real charge in the NIT.
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@HighEliteMajor Good points…but I say “lower expectations” NOT because we have a ton of talent (#1 recruit, 3 McD’s, yada, yada)…but because of how they are ACTUALLY playing. Do you see the piss poor defense that I do? We lost this game that KSU was trying to give us on a platter (by allowing it to even get to OT), simply because we couldnt stop Will eff-ing Spradling (cough, cough!) from shooting 3s, or from making assists to a surprise bench bigman for easy layups. We even let that Spradling drive for a layup. If you ever wanted to see a B-version of BStar, look at Spradling --> but then the joke turns on KU since we let a guy like that make clutch play after clutch play. My god, I have watched KU-KSU games and this was the LONE game we allow Spradling to look like a star.
NO, we wont make the Elite8 or Final4 if we play D like this. Recurring theme. Not Bill Self basketball. Where is that FG% defense number at? Yep, well over 40%. It matters. Self’s philosophy (that caused all those W’s) is absolutely predicated on making the opponent shoot rushed or bad shots. If we cant do that, please lower expectations. Just keeping my analytical eyes open.
Honestly, I’d consider starting Frankamp over Tharpe, as Frankamp has shown defensive INSTINCTS every single time he gets some minutes. And god help the opponents if he gets his 3gun going. Very, very disappointed in Tharpe’s D. PG’s penetrating have so many options, and if they get by Tharpe, our whole team D is placed in imminent jeopardy. Good way to get our bigs in foul trouble as they try to come help on Tharpe’s open floodgates. (HEM, I’m not nitpicking your expectations personally, since I share(d) them also, but just pointing out this team’s HUGE recurring flaw. It will surely fell us. That’s the reality of Selfball–the devil is in the execution, not the conceptual construct (which is almost perfect)). Again, we got rollercoaster babyHawks trying to consistently execute, and a lackluster jr. guard.
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@ralster totally agree! One of my favorite moments from last year was EJ dribbling thru Spradlings legs. We made him look like an all star last pm! I’m a firm believer that playing d is from your heart!
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We now know what life with our perimeter defense (this year) and no rim protector is like. Lots of points for the opposition in the paint. KStates defense on us reminded me of how we usually are against other teams. Not this year. If Embiid gets healthy, and everything gels, we have a chance for a NC. The loss itself was no big deal. Young team, tough environment…it happens. 4 losses still probably wins the league out right, 5 probably ties. But I haven’t looked at everyone else’s schedule recently. As HEM, I think, said some time ago, each loss brings us further from a number 1 seed. I’m seeing a 2 or maybe a 3 seed. I’m hopeful, but I’m just not feeling a NC run here with this team. Feels like we’re too young. Kentucky 2 years ago was an exception, I think. I hope I’m wrong…
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A couple of other thoughts… That pick and roll play that KState ran time after time late in the game was driving me crazy…we couldn’t stop it. After the comeback and Black’s bucket to start the OT, I really felt like we had the momentum and were going to be alright. But…we couldn’t stop them…not one single time in OT. Brannen’s TO, Perry and Wiggins each going 1 for 2 at the foul line…and we were basically done because we couldn’t stop them.
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@Hawk8086 how long does it to figure that dang simple pick n roll? Drove me nuts!
