February 6: News Headlines Digest
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Hope the fans are this pumped for WV Sat. They had lots of empty seats at their OU game last night (maybe weather related) and don’t think they will have experienced a crowd this size yet this season. But watching a lot of Big 12 games, arenas aren’t full except for when we play (Baylor Tues. may be the only exception).
Rock Chalk!
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Wichita State has had a difficult time finding teams that will play them home and home. I think they have done quite well this season. It is hard to get fired up for lesser opponents, but they manage to get it done. I don’t know how far they will make it in the tourney, but they have had an exceptional year.
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@icthawkfan316 @JayHawkFanToo I have mixed feelings on WSU. On the one hand I’ve watched KU play arguably the toughest schedule of any team ever. On the other, I’ve watched WSU play arguably the weakest.
I’ve watched WSU play a few times. I watched the game against Illinois St., and like @JayHawkFanToo I was not impressed. I couldn’t help but think if Illinois St. wasn’t absolutely terrible, this wouldn’t be a close game. ISU went down the floor, either when they were down, or up and just jacked threes all night. This happened over and over again until WSU had taken the lead and the outcome was inevitable.
But I’m sure WSU does have a difficult time scheduling home and homes. Going to Wichita, KS does little for any school. It’s not a fertile recruiting area, and KU has it sewn up anyways. And second, it’s Wichita, KS. Self could tell recruits last year, ‘well, we’ll be going to the Bahamas, Florida, Colorado, and Chicago. Next year we’ll be traveling to San Diego, NYC, and Hawaii (I think).’ Other big name programs have similar opportunities, so why go to Wichita. Imagine if WSU was in Topeka (TSU). This would not be an argument as far as why people don’t want to go there. But I digress.
I almost want to see KU schedule WSU so we can shut them up. But then again, what happens when they lose this batch of players and go another 10 years without making the tournament. I’d rather play Belmont in AFH.
One last thing, I don’t think WSU fans realize how bad it is to get so fat from beating awful teams. When we lost to UNI, I think a big reason for that was that the Big 12 wasn’t very good that year and we didn’t really have to play anybody good. It’s hard to turn it on like a light switch come tourney time. They’ll be last years Gonzaga in the tourney this year.
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It just doesn’t do us any good to belittle the Shockers. It shows that they get under our skin.
I’m happy for the Shockers and we’ll see how both teams do in March. There won’t be any excuses on SOS then… and both KU and WSU have to pull their weight or go home.
I like that I have another Kansas team to cheer for. Obviously… I won’t be cheering for them if we have to play them!
I hope the Kitties at KSU make March Madness, too. I just wish they still had Frank Martin… someone I liked as head coach!
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@icthawkfan316-Last year I watched A-10 ball on cbssports network, but this year I’ve been more obligated. Don’t think the A-10 is quite the conf without Butler. St Louis was better, IMO with Majerus also, but they did play feisty D last year at least. VCU would be a good matchup for WSU & another game that would test them could be Gonzaga. They’ve a home/home with KSU right? I don’t necessarily agree with no one wanting to play them-when UMKC started their fledgling program in the early 90’s, there were many years they played KU, OSU, Neb, KSU, etc. Personally I think Marshall kinda grinds the axe with all his “poor me” comments after he whiffed on Ellis & Frankamp. Really I can’t blame him either, but if he wants a tougher SOS, that shouldn’t be an obstacle at all. He just likes to call out KU publically without upgrading his schedule much at all. Like slayr says, in March we’ll get the goods on that 24-0 start.
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@globaljaybird I was just looking at the rest of our schedule and on paper it looks to be pretty good for us. Most of our toughest games should be played at home. That said, what game is not tough? Every team in the Big 12 plays up when they play KU.
Realistically, how many games can we lose from here on and get a #1 seed? As HEM has pointed out numerous times getting a #1 seed results in the greatest chance of winning the title. Obviously 8 seeds have been in the Final 4 often lately but I am just curious what everyone thinks about our chances of getting a #1. The game at OSU sticks out as a probable loss to me but not really any other games. Can we lose 2 more regular season games and lose 1 game in the Big 12 tourney and still have a chance at a #1 seed?
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KU has had to play second fiddle to over rated teams in the Eastern standard time zone for decades. Being as good as those teams, or nearly as good, was never enough for KU to get treated with respect by media. It was not until Self’s 10 year run of absolutely phenomenal success on top of Williams 15 years of phenomenal success that KU began to get treated nearly equally. And even now, there is no doubt that ESPN and CBS broadcasters favor teams from the Eastern standard time zone. And it appears that the NCAA seeding committee often favors teams from the Eastern standard time zone still. If Wichita State wants to be considered the equal of KU, then they need to stop knocking KU and start winning at 80% for the next 25 years, plus go to several more final fours, plus win a ring. If they have a beef, direct it at the national media and the NCAA seeding committee, not at KU. KU faces the same obstacles Wichita State does. KU just wins one hell of a lot more and for a lot longer! Next.
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Funny, Aaron Rodgers hat still has the display hook and tag attached…can you say Minnie Pearl? the older poster will know what I mean…
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@joeloveshawks-I dunno Joe, maybe 2 more losses could still get a #1, but with AZ, SU & WSU pretty much shoe-ins, it’s not gonna take much to drop us to a 2. UT is that proverbial dark horse lurking & could leapfrog us in conf should we stub a hoof heading for the wire. Sometimes we just don’t know what KU team will show up & that’s why I emphatically said if those guys read buckets-they need to get “locked & loaded” for stretch run. JMO but they all need the fire that Black is showing when he’s on the floor, & I also think he’s going to get min since obviously Joel is not 100%. Like with Kevin last year, that energy is contagious if he can just stay out of foul trouble. I also thought Perry was a little more animated vs Baylor, but there’s still a long way for them to go with team toughness.
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I outlined yesterday the remaining schedule for KU and UT and KU has its hows that KU has already played the tougher portion of the schedule with the easier part ahead; UT, on the other hand, has played the softer portion of its schedule and the remaining portion is tougher than KU’s.
The latest Bracketology show the PAC 12, Big 12, Big 10 and ACC all sending 6 teams to the dance. At this point the 4 #1 seeds are Syracuse. Arizona, Florida and Wichita State. Arizona and Florida have a good chance at running the table, since their conferences are weaker. Syracuse can lose 1 or maybe 2 games and would still be a #1 seed. Wichita State has the best chance or going undefeated and keeping their #1 seed as they are heavy favorites in all their remaining games; however. if they lose 1 game, they would likely drop to a #3 seed. Barring some heavy upsets, which do tend to happen at the end of the season, looks like the 4 #1 seeds might be already set, if one goes by subjective rankings. There are number of teams all bunched up competing for the #2 seeds.
Now, if you look at the BPI and RPI, like the NCAA committee supposedly does, then KU has much better chance at a #1 seed, since their numbers in these two metrics are very good.
In short, If KU loses one more game, their chances of getting a #1 seed decrease quite a bit; two loses and they are pretty much out of contention, based on the projections for the current top ranked teams outlined above.
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@JayHawkFanToo Great analysis. It would obviously be great if we could run the table but I tend to doubt it. The OSU game in Stillwater seems like a loss and I think we will probably drop another game we don’t expect.
That said, I actually like the idea of getting a 2 or even a 3 seed in some ways. Last year in the first round it seemed like we played with SO much pressure on us. That pressure carried over into the first half of the North Carolina game as well. As a #2 we could potentially fly a bit more under the radar (sort of) and maybe even play with a chip on our shoulder. Either way as we have found out in the past March is all about matchups and the seeding is only part of the problem.
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@jaybate 1.0 I whine about east coast bias all the time, but every once in a while I try to look at it from the perspective of the businesses that operate the media.
If said business, say SI has to sell magazines, are they going to decide to write stories of lesser interest to the most buyers? Maybe or maybe not. They’ve got to make money. Therefore SI puts Tom Brady on the cover the week the White Sox won their first World Series in 88 years, a year after the Bosox won their first in 86 years and were featured on the cover 3 straight weeks. It sucks for the rest of us, especially us White Sox fans, but it’s a fact of life.
The nice thing about it is it doesn’t affect our team and its’ play. It matters not that ESPN will pay more attention to whichever ACC/Big East team is hot, even if they’re a lesser team. We don’t have to impress pollsters like you do in football. We will make the dance with a high seed almost every year.
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@wissoxfan83 I heard Jimmy Dykes speak the truth the other night, i.e., that Bill Self does NOT get mentioned for National or Big 12 Coach of the Year because “we all know what BIll can do, has done and we expect him to win year in and year out.” He went on to say that it wasn’t right that he is always omitted. I think individually many analysts get what KU is and what it has done but the agenda of their keeper is to laud the Big East/ACC/SEC (be it football or basketball). Look at all the talk about which conference is better this year and all the minutes spent by ESPN et al. on nothing but that. At least KU is always mentioned when they do go on ad nauseum about Big 10 v Big 12 v Big East, right?
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@RockChalkinTexas Even if Bill Self doesn’t get coach of the year honors, it still goes back to my last point. The goal is to compete for championships. KU will do that year in and year out no matter who is paying attention.
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@RockChalkinTexas-I heard that also. What Bill did with the 11’-12’ team was phenomenal. But those guys were close friends after the year prior when TRobs Mother passed. I’ve not forget that home loss to UT either & great chemistry just cannot be denied. Dykes is my fav color guy even without the KU/Self love. He calls it like it is as HEM said, without all the tangents & digression that the others just seem to ramble about. Frannies OK is small doses & fired espn guy Ron Franklin was OK also.
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@wissoxfan83 They are in an eye ball and click bidness. Period. Which ever programs can generate the most eyeballs get the most KY Jelly. If KU joined the ACC, Self would be national coach of the year most years.
I’ve said for quite awhile now that the Big 12 needs an EST footprint for WVU to be in. Then KU needs to market itself as America’s team. This is the other way Self can be coach of the year each year.
But in the final analysis, Self is getting the big paychecks, he is respected by everyone that knows a lick about the game, and life is going to go on at the Father of All College Basketball programs. Period.
So.
Next.
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I am sorry but I will disagree with the posters that claim KU does not get recognition and only the East Cost teams do.
Recognition translates to dollars that programs receive from the networks and merchandising. Every game KU plays is on National TV, even when our infamous AD chose to have some of them blacked out in our own State of Kansas.
Anyone that follows basketball, and yes, this includes the East Coast, is familiar with KU’s history and current success. I have lots of friend in both coasts and the ones in the basketball-first Est Coast follow KU regularly, and they know that year in and year out, KU is in the National Title conversation.
The best indicator of the value of the “not-East Cosat” programs is the financial evaluation Forbes, the leading financial magazine, did of the various basketball programs:
Forbes ranking of basketball programs
Look where the majority of the top 25 programs are located…surprise, the Mid West, with KU being the #2 most valuable program behind Louisville. Look who is #19, Kansas State. Look at the top two conferences in the land, the Big 12 and the Big 10, both Mid West conferences.
I know that some analysts are biased towards East Cost programs, after all, they have much bigger markets. but when the rubber hits the road, the Mid West rules; $$$ tell the story.
Yes, there are announcers that go gaga over East Cost teams, such as Duke Vitale, who is almost a cartoon character, and who has little influence, other than with fans of Duke or North Carolina, the programs he worships. Many other such as Fran Fraschilla, Bob Knight and even our nemesis Doug Gotlieb have a more Mid West bias.
As far as Coach Self not being in the conversation of Coach of the Year, it is not quite right because he always is. However, he is probably the victim of his own success, by being consistently at or the near the top, not only of the conference, but the national scene as well. Coach of the Year award, now-a-days are awarded to lesser coaches that had unexpected success, such as Bruce Weber last year that had KSU unexpectedly tied for first in the conference, and not to the ones, such as Coach Self, that are always at the top…such is life.
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@jaybate 1.0
"If Wichita State wants to be considered the equal of KU, then they need to stop knocking KU and start winning at 80% for the next 25 years, plus go to several more final fours, plus win a ring. "
I hear you, JB… but I’ve never heard WSU claim to be the equal of KU… definitely not in the stature department. In that area, I’ve only heard praise from Shockers… both fans and coaches. They just want to play every year. And the past years they’ve had a good team.
We have the potential to develop a rivalry, and that is good for both programs and the State of Kansas!
Hey… just look at Kentucky vs Louisville. That rivalry really isn’t very old… back in the day, Louisville was the WSU and was always wanting to play Kentucky. They never would until Louisville beat them in the tournament. Kentucky fans suddenly wanted a piece of Louisville back so they signed up and have never gone back! Today… both teams (and fan bases) have nothing but praise for their rivalry! It has become a huge deal in the State and both programs were lifted by doing it, including Kentucky!
Rivalries are where it is at, and is one of the best advantages a program can have for recruiting. If you don’t believe me… go to a Kentucky-Louisville game and see how many recruits are in attendance! Recruits want to be in an environment that is juiced and nothing gets players, coaches and fans more juiced than a rivalry!
Kansas is really blowing this deal!
Missouri, our bast*rd stepchild is gone! We have no more rivalry in basketball! KSU is a joke! WSU represents the perfect situation to build a rivalry. The fans already have plenty of animosity towards each other. And it is a HUGE ADVANTAGE to build a rivalry that is not in our own conference! We can play WSU every year and it won’t threaten our string of conference championships!
With the new arrangement of 3 games… one at AFH, Sprint and Intrust in Wichita, the gate outperforms games in AFH! We pick up 500 in ticket sales! The sell of licensed goods would be huge! And it is one more big game KU can have on their schedule every year in pre-conf that gets boo-coo media attention!
Just converse with anyone from the State of Kentucky and ask their opinion… if they would like to give up their rival game! 100% want to keep it!
We are reacting out of fear and this idea that it is about propping WSU up to our status level. That is simply not the case, and WSU will never be on our status level. Really… NO PROGRAM IN AMERICA IS! Not even Kentucky! The inception of basketball rests in Lawrence, Kansas! But we can’t use that fact to keep us locked up from challenges. I’ve never heard anyone from WSU who believes their program has the status equal to Kansas, or anywhere close! That is a red herring manufactured in Lawrence, Kansas!
Let’s play the Shocks… and let’s kick their arse back to Wichita!
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Excellent post, my friend!
I believe every word you stated!
You are explaining how things are today. Back in my college days… there were only two teams out west given a decent amount of recognition… UCLA and Indiana! Noticed how I said “teams out west”… because in the media, Indiana and California might as well have been neighbors because both were considered “out west.”
All of this goes beyond basketball… it is just a culture thing. In recent years, with growth of 24 hr news media (including sports) and the internet… news west of Kentucky is now being sprinkled into the media scene, even on the east coast!
Where you don’t want to be today is on the west coast. There is no way to schedule games to fit the time slots in the east or even midwest. We are lucky to be only one time slot away from the east. This is the reason the west coast started lagging competitively… because as the east coast media market started showing more ball, we benefited, as did other teams in the midwest, but the time zone issue has dampened some of the growth out on the west coast. It really hurt their recruiting efforts because players wanted more national exposure.
Today, I think the west is starting to finally “rebound” back. Teams like Arizona and SDSU are proving they can play ball out west again. There just doesn’t seem to be enough space to showcase more teams out west. Once you go east, even many of the crummy teams get plenty of press, because they are in the right place and right conference… and they have already built a big fan base.
It is hard to find commentators that are totally unbiased… in any part of the country! I guess it is only natural that they have their biases just like all of us fans do. I’m sure if someone put a microphone under my chin I would be quickly hated by all non-Kansas fans!
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@RockChalkinTexas Thanks a lot. It is always great to see HCBS in the locker room after the victor.
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@drgnslayr Oh slayr. I really love your posts, and while there are nuggets of truth in there, I just don’t see the WSU rivalry as the way to go. First of all, I disagree 100% that it would be an advantage because it would be an out-of-conference rivalry. The best rivalries, in all sports at all levels, come from within conferences, divisions, leagues, etc. Off the top of your head, name the biggest sports rivalries: Red Sox-Yankees, Ohio State-Michigan, Duke-UNC, Alabama-Auburn, Dodgers-Giants, etc. The best non-conference rivalries don’t hold a candle to those. The only time rivalries from non-conference teams elevate themselves to being close to that level is when it is centered around individuals. Recently, the Louisville-Kentucky rivalry has heated up because it’s Pitino-Calipari. Was anybody (outside of Kentucky) paying attention to that rivalry when Tubby Smith or BIlly Gillispie were there? The Patriots-Colts/Broncos because of Brady vs. Manning. When those quarterbacks are gone, the rivalry will not sustain. As for any concerns over threatening our string of conference championships, for me that would never be a factor in wanting another school to elevate themselves to be a suitable rival. I would prefer it to be in-conference. I would never think to operate out of fear of another school rising up to challenge us. That would be a good a thing, to be challenged for the conference title.
The other disadvantage with this that looms as a very real possibility is what happens when Wichita St. falls off? And most likely they will fall off. They’ve had some unbelievable success recently, but it will be impossible to sustain for a couple of reasons. Mainly - conference affiliation. It is near impossible to sustain the highest levels of success at mid-majors. And Wichita St. is almost guaranteed to stay where they’re at because they don’t have football. They would have a hard time selling themselves to another conference to try and improve their position because of the lack of a football program. So everything you say - the gate, the merchandise, the media attention - it is all conditional upon Wichita State maintaining success. Probably safe in a 3-year deal, as it is doubtful a program can nose dive out too quickly (although not impossible). But long-term, in terms of “developing a rivalry” as you say, I wouldn’t in good faith put my eggs in that basket if I was making this call.
My point in all of this is that our focus should be on developing a real rival. Wichita State most certainly is not the perfect situation to build a rivalry. It SHOULD have been a full-court press to get Louisville into the conference a year ago or so. In the absence of an in-conference rival, I would be more interested in cultivating rivalry in a region where it would help strengthen our recruiting footprint. At least in the short term, until the next realignment shake-up. After that happens, reassess and hopefully there’s a more suitable candidate.
To the recruiting issue, I think Self is doing just fine in that department. Most venues, I would agree, you try and get your recruits there in a perfect storm of circumstances - rivalry game, homecoming (football), put on a big show, roll out the red carpet, etc. Other programs need those things. Okie State needs Travis Ford begging in the student center to come to the games and support the teams. Most other schools are certainly in the same boat. We are Kansas. We sell out every game. Most games there is an electric atmosphere. Certainly there are enough games on our schedule every year that we can say “this should be a good game to host recruits” that we don’t need to go try and manufacture a rivalry game just for that. Really, recruiting is a non-issue in this, at least in so much as adding Wichita State to the schedule is concerned.
My position isn’t one operating out of fear. More out of loathing for their fan base and their coach. I live in WIchita and let me tell you they are more obnoxious than KState fans, which is saying something! And lastly, to your urging us to “Just converse with anyone from the State of Kentucky”, I just have this to say: I try and avoid that at all costs! You can’t make me! Bahaha
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Excellent counter!
I never liked the Mizzou rival because it was in-conference. Half the time they might suck, but they would give us a run for the money because they get up for games with Kansas. Rival games, in general, are battles to the end so we have no advantage by starting one with another B12 team because no other team in our conference keeps up with our success. By making one of them a rival just puts them on a competitive balance with us in games. I really don’t want another B12 rival!
Hard to say what direction WSU will go… but if they sink, we can always kill the rivalry. We aren’t signing a deal into perpetuity! The Kentucky/Louisville rivalry didn’t start until Louisville beat Kentucky in the NCAA tournament. BTW: they call it “Battle for the Bluegrass” and is ranked as the 3rd best rivalry in all of college sports. Conference affiliation has nothing to do with it. The Cards, up until this year, were in the AAC, not one of the power conferences. Personalities helped get this rivalry kicked back up… mainly, Pitino switching camps!
If it helps WSU stay strong, then that is a good thing, even for KU basketball. We are better to be surrounded by good programs and playing them, then out in a desert. It certainly seems to help teams back east because they are very close in proximity.
Yes, Self is a great recruiter. I hope he can stay at KU for eternity. Highly unlikely. When I was a student at Kansas we completely sucked in basketball.
We can’t just manufacture a rivalry. The “loathing of fan bases” just needs to be there in the first place, and you illustrated it is already in place! I’m certain quite a few people on both sides feel the same way. That is how rivals get going!
The big disadvantage is you live in Wichita! So you are bound to catch an earful on that one oddball year they beat us.
If you want some help I’ll get you with a pro Kansas crowd in Woo-town… I hate to think of you stuck around a bushel of wheat mascot!
I miss having a rival. The Purple Kitties just aren’t up for the task! Who else do we despise? I’ll give you a clue… starts with black and ends with gold…
I see this like I see the B12… being reactive to teams leaving the conference. We can either be reactive and wait until damage is done, or we can be proactive. I hope we aren’t missing a rivalry 20 years from now. We will feel the effects, I guarantee. And Self will be at least a decade away from Kansas basketball. I’d hate to think we revert back to where we were when I was at KU!
That is why I’m proactive… I remember plenty of bleak years of Jayhawk basketball. Yes… we are great now… and we should be proactive to keep it that way!
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@RockChalkinTexas Love the video. So awesome.
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@drgnslayr I always thought that Martin just went too far. Kids can only take so much. SC isn’t doing much. We’ll see how he does long term.
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You are probably right… and I think fan bases and administrations can only take so much, too. Martin reminds me of my dad… so I have had over half a century to get used to the screaming style!
At least Martin was completely respectful to Self and the program at Kansas. He constantly went out of his way to speak highly of Jayhawk basketball!
Maybe we can make him an assistant after he gets canned! hahahahehe!
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@drgnslayr I loved Martin! I remember how respectful he was to us and especially to TRob, even donated to the Jayla fund.
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@drgnslayr You are on of my favorite posters and I feel bad for you or anyone who was going to KU during some bad years. I hope you’ve had your share of AFH games in good times since. I was spoiled. In the mid 70’s we went to the final four in bBall, had championship bBall teams, two FB bowl games, and track and swimming OWNED the conference.
I have admit I am pissed at programs that left the big 12, but more so the teams that left the original Big 8. Mizzou is on the top of that list. So I am okay, rather enjoy they aren’t relevant in bBall anymore- because they aren’t in bBall even in a conference lead with one royalty team.
I must admit they did something special in football this year. A subject we aren’t worthy to talk about-I wonder iF they are real or if it was a special year-time will tell.
As for Martin, liked him, respected him, and sorry he left the conference. IMHO Martinez was my favorite behind Hartman. And as great as they were, can you imagine Snyder landing at KU FB instead of KSU. Oh, for a time machine.
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@drgnslayr The UK-Louisville rivalry is nonexistent to me. I could not possibly care less about it, regardless of where it ranks. Nobody outside of the state of Kentucky does. Besides my opinion, when WSU wins three national titles, then you can talk about us missing the opportunity to develop an in-state rival. Right now, it just seems like a knee jerk reaction.
I don’t live in Wichita and can’t stand WSU fans. And saying that K-State isn’t up to it, I’m sorry, but neither is WSU. Why? Because they had a good season (and a half)? Sorry, I just don’t buy it. The whole argument, I just don’t see it. If WSU can turn into a Louisville as you’ve stated, then maybe we can talk about it. But right now, I’m with Bill on this one. Too little to gain. I still love how Self said, ‘our schedule is made to help our program, not somebody else’s.’
The lack of a rival will kill KU’s success? How? We’ve had Texas, K-State, ISU, and OKST in the last several years. Personally, I liked the rivalry with UT. That was always the fun game to watch. I just don’t think we’re that desperate for one that jumping in with the flavor of the week is worth it. I’m biased of course, but the Big 12 is awesome. So many personalities and story lines.
But anyways, I feel like you’re trying to force a round peg into a square hole with this one.
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Really, this is a no brainer in terms of basketball and marketing. Playing Wichita State would be a waste of a game, if we could schedule a good team in a big TV market instead. And we can, because we are a reliable brand that wins 80% a year and increasingly brings hyped players that draw crowds that fill arenas and hold eyeballs and get clicks. A home and home with an MVC team? I don’t think so.
Next. KU HAS long appeared to have its successes under reported and it’s failures over reported by eastern media like ESPN. Logically, broadcaster behavior is not being debated.
Finally, I don’t see what the Forbes imaginary program value estimates have to do with KU’s apparent asymmetric treatment by eastern media.
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Geez, can’t spell check recognize Martin in the same post and not change it to MartinEZ. I am not good typing on my iPad and this thing is killing me. Approx or Julian- I am flying into KC next weekend and will be at the TCU game. Any chance one of you IT wizards can program my iPad to write whit what I think, not guess what I type?
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@JayhawkRock78 mine does the same thing!
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@drgnslayr Some very good points. I fully admit the need for a rival. HEM & I used to discuss this over at KUsports, how that was the one thing that would prevent us from climbing to yet another level of success. Most great teams in the sport have that rivalry, and it’s usually a competitive one (not like our “rivalry” with Misery, that was built solely on hate, not on respect or competitive equality. You say you miss having a rival. I’d tell you we never had one to begin with). All of the rivalries I mentioned have that. Kensucky probably holds an advantage over Louisville, but the Cards have surely closed the gap over the last 20-30 years, and looking at only that window we might see the competitive balance.
You are also correct (at least in my estimation) in your view of the B12. See my comment about the desire to add Louisville to the conference. Adding them would have created an instant rivalry. Look at how the media is gushing over one Duke-Syracuse game and the rivalry that’s started. Yes, the B12 was extremely reactive to the conference realignment shifts. Where I disagree is that it’s one thing to recognize the failings of the B12 as reactive, it’s another to charge into an endeavor just for the sake of being proactive.
I think you’re missing the point about an in-conference rival. Who *can *keep up with our success? Only a handful of teams have success & tradition close to ours. But consider UNC-Duke. Duke didn’t have the success & tradition that UNC had when it rose to prominence. But that rivalry, even though they’re on a down trend now, has certainly made UNC better. It’s helped them brand themselves nationally. Every UNC-Duke game is on ESPN. They run special promos for those games, showing clips going back 20+ years. Images like Tyler Hansborough emerging with a bloody nose or Jeff Capel launching a half-court shot to force triple overtime are burned into our brains. It’s free recruiting, and that is where the rivalry game helps you in that respect. Not on a one-game, recruits in the stands basis, but from a national consciousness level. I just don’t see the argument for an out-of-conference rivalry being better. You mention not wanting another team to be put on a level of competitive balance with us, whereas I think that is exactly what we need. It just doesn’t need to be manufactured (as was the case with Misery). It needs to come from the rival being legitimately competitive.
I see how fond you are of bringing up the Louisville-Kensucky rivalry. First, I’m curious who exactly is ranking that as the “3rd best rivalry in all of college sports”. To me, all three college rivalries I mentioned would rank ahead in my book. Regardless, it is a good rivalry. But that is the exception. How many other non-conference rivalries are out there, and where do they rank in the spectrum? Notre Dame-USC maybe? They’re few & far between. And like we both said, it is the personalities that have fueled the uptick in the Louisville-Kensucky rivalry. I’m looking for a rivalry on a program level. That’s what’s going to ensure we have a rivalry in 20 years. Not playing a 3 game series with Wichita St.
I have two schools in mind that we have some recent history with - Michigan St. & Ohio St. Now, it’s hard to fathom them ever leaving the B10, and it’s equally hard to fathom the B10 inviting us in due to our poor football program, but those are the type of programs that we could conceivably develop a legitimate rivalry with. Another would be Florida, we have some recent history with them as well. In the absence of being able to establish an in-conference rival, it is playing teams like these that I would rather our schedule makers focus on. Either pitting us against other blue bloods or against second tier teams: Louisville, Arizona, UConn, Syracuse, maybe even Cincinnati, and the three programs previously mentioned.
Lastly, no worries on hooking me up with some local Jayhawk fans. There are still plenty around Wichita, so no wheat mascots camped next to me on the couch or bar stool watching the games! That would truly be the last straw down here for me with this fan base!
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The point that building a Wichita-KU Rivalry could generate some cash appeals. It might also be fun, like a UK-UL game. It could be a good game, too.
Since the Louisville-UK rivalry (LKR) is brought up as a model, let’s consider this model for comparability in order to decide if we should use it as a model for KU.
City of Louisville is a nationally recognized high school basketball recruiting hotbed. Wichita is not.
The state of Kentucky produces a lot of D1 recruits each year, Kansas does not.
The state of Kentucky and both schools are in the EST which means their rivalry will be hyped for EST where the most recruits and eyeballs and clicks are. KU-WSU is in a part of the CST where few recruits, eyeballs and clicks are and would not have strong appeal to major CST markets like Chicago and Texas.
Hyping the LKR promotes regional interest in the schools in neighboring basketball recruiting hot beds in the Ohio Valley. KU-WSU would not that I can see.
UL and UK have long split the best in-state recruits. KU has increasingly gotten most of the best in-state recruits.
KU has to think about national recruiting exposure in everything it does. To do that it has to market itself in EST, TEXAS, CHICAGO and SOCAL every chance it can. A rivalry with WSU does not promote that, just as a rivalry wihth KSU does not.
The way to create a rivalry with WSU is to add them to the B12, but they would have to bring enough TV market revenue to offset the diluting effect in tv share per school. If, say, the a major donor were to invest heavily in building a 60k football stadium, a football program, and 15-20k basketball arena, for WSU, then the Big12 might admit them and KU might approve. And then the rivalry might flourish. But I don’t see that happening.
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Compelling discussion. I personally think WSU should play KU just for the fan bases in KS–but that’s it. Something all three fanbases could beat their chests about for a year–> this includes making KSU play WSU. (Let’s not forget KU/WSU series DID exist and was terminated in the early 90’s at WSU’s request because the games had become “noncompetetive”.). Time will tell if Marshall can entice higher level recruits, or not. But I actually dont fully buy Bill Self’s line about how a loss to WSU could hurt KU’s recruiting. I’d like to ask Ben Anderson of UNI if his MVC team’s defeating KU helped his recruiting any, compared to if that loss has hurt Self’s recruiting. Ask Roy Williams: Some places are easier to recruit to (UNC). And some coaches can recruit any where they go (Self). If Self went to WSU or OkieState, either school would become a yearly national contender in about 3 years.
Regarding TV markets and business side reasons: there is little to be gained, other than in-state hype and sales by having WSU play KU. Interesting in-state mktg would be KSU=agri, KU=wave the wheat, WSU=wheatshocks. In that sense we are brethren, and we all are Kansas.
Just for fun, I will end with Ron Baker’s nationally-televised quote when Holly Rowe interview he+Early+N.Wiggins in the stands of AFH during the Baylor game: (She asked what the WSU players thought of KU’s team, Nick said “well, they are young…”.), and Ron Baker interrupted that “Look, its just basketball, and at the end of the day, we all represent the state of KS.” This KU alum will agree with Ron Baker. I know Marshall hates KU and his fanbase only echoes that. But, taking the high road (royalty fan should), I will support WSU (& even KSU) as long as they arent facing my KU.
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@ralster I have never heard Self say that a loss to WSU would hurt our recruiting. Not saying he hasn’t said that, but the line I’ve heard most often is that he doesn’t want to give away a home game every other year because home games are how they fund the athletic department. Saw this in an interview done by local news here in Wichita when one of the channels started broadcasting their early season games that year, and have heard it a couple of other times since. And this is how I have finally gained some traction with WSU fans and got them to come off the “KU is scared to play us”, at least a little bit. A week ago or so, also on a local news report, there was a story about how WSU’s Final Four run last year actually cost the university millions (that was the teaser anyway. I only half watched the piece, and I don’t remember if they factored in merchandising and whatnot after the fact). Many might recall last year how Florida Gulf Coast was having a hard time with funds to travel on the second weekend of the tournament. Given this story, WSU fans were able to see how thin the line is for not ending up in the red for the non-football powerhouse schools.
