IS BAD BALL THE GREATEST UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCE IN D1, SINCE DEAN SMITH'S FOUR CORNERS?
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Who do we blame for this loss in fundamentals?
It appears to be a vicious circle created by modern times.
Every kid has cable tv… a smart phone with video capabilities. Gameboys… Xbox…
Young kids are having their minds shifted into unreal worlds. The worlds of 3d games.
This is where young people live.
And when you mesh that with young athletes… you throw in SportsCenter Top 10s…
Why would any athletic kid waste his time learning boring fundamentals. There is no sparkle to fundamentals. There is a lot of sparkle in a 45 inch vertical and a monster slam dunk.
Young kids spend all their time focusing on super hero moves. Young Wigs did it. His spin move was (and is) something out of Spiderman. And hey… it worked. It got him to the next level each time, with media trailing right behind. Now he’s in the league… starting to learn some fundamentals for the first time! At least… enough to help his stat line and execute his super hero movies.
So the kid athletes aren’t exactly begging for fundamentals anymore. And as Kobe said… their developmental chain is corrupted with exploitative feeders, not real coaches. The same can be said about college coaches. Never thought I’d say that… but I am sick of watching dumb basketball!
Can we blame college coaches? I’m not sure… I recall just a few years ago… before Self sold out to the OADs. He told recruits they would have to earn their minutes. Fight hard and eventually you will earn some PT. We see where that got him. I sort of view him as a victim of the game, too. He had his morals coming in. And I know he has had to sacrifice his beliefs in order to push to the top. He had to. It’s what the fans want. And if the fans want it, the money follows, and the administration wants it, too.
I just wish Self could get rid of some of the dead weight assistant coaches and bring in real developers. And start selling these kids that they need more than a monster slam to make it in basketball.
As much as I despise John Calipari… I have to hand it to him… at least the guy has successfully convinced his crew of 5-star athletes that their best option is to share minutes and go with a team strategy. If he can convince them of that… surely Self can start focusing back on development and start teaching recruits and players that development will eventually give them more than a little sparkle in their games.
@jaybate-1.0 - perhaps consider renaming “BAD BALL” to “DUMB BALL.”
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I can hardly stand to watch Kansas basketball because I start caring so deeply for our players.
For example… Wayne Selden.
Man… I really care about Wayne. He just seems like such a quality human being. He is so likeable.
Wayne may easily be the strongest basketball player Kansas has EVER had! Examine his clean and jerk numbers with Hudy. The guy is a phenomenal athlete. And I know his heart is in this game. He is passionate about his basketball and wanting to help his team. For all of these reasons I have developed a man crush. I had the same man crush for EJ… the guy who made ultimate sacrifices for Self and Kansas basketball.
Wayne was jacked up for this game. His stat line was not outstanding… but it does show that he was involved deeply in the game. He also did a reasonable job shutting down Yancy.
With Wayne’s physique and athleticism… he should be pulling huge huge stats in college. Imagine if he was taught how to rebound? Imagine if he was given enough of the scoring basics to play at a level similar to Niang? There is no reason why Wayne shouldn’t be averaging 8+ rebounds a game. Imagine if we had a shooting guard averaging 8+ rebounds a game? And imagine if he knew how to score like Niang, but add in his remarkable athleticism with that skill set? His scoring average would be up there around 20 ppg.
Players don’t typically develop to all that in just one year. But Wayne is on his second year. And after that… you think he’ll even get there after 4 years? I doubt it. Then Wayne will struggle to make his living in basketball going through the D-league and in Europe or some other far off place. It just isn’t fair. We will have had him for 4 years and he has the bones to be a top notch NBA player if he was developed right with 4 years of college ball development. It ain’t gonna happen!
This is why I can hardly watch. To care about a guy so much and see the potential not even closely reached. It is tough to watch. I don’t know if I blame our coaches or the players or both. Or maybe it is just our society and what I mentioned above with young people focused on stuff like video games, Spiderman and SportsCenter.
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@drgnslayr don’t give up hope!!
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. Your man crushes!!!
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Have you heard of the Buffalo Germans?
They were 792-86 and once won 111 straight games.
They are one of only five teams inducted into the BHOF.
They were coached by Fred Burkhardt, who learned the game from James Naismith, when Burkhardt was among the boys that played at the Springfield YMCA, before Naismith went west to University of Denver to get a medical degree.
In the Naismith coaching tree, Burkhardt is the forgotten branch–the YMCA branch.
Basketball had at least three distinct branches until WWI.
The branch that Naismith brought with him to KU–the college branch.
The professional branch that grew up entirely beyond his influence in the eastern seaboard cities under the influence of both entrepreneurs and gamblers.
And the YMCA branch, of which the Buffalo Germans were the most famed members of.
The Germans were a group of German-American youth that started playing around 13 and played for a decade or so. They played all comers any where any time, pro or college, if I recall correctly, but mostly other YMCA teams. They played lots of town teams. They played games in streets and in YMCAs, and in parks and where ever. They sometimes played 5 official games in a day and I suspect probably many more than 5 in a day unofficially.
YMCA ball was its own kind of basketball. The Germans were the best of it, but it is believed that at the time of their greatest dominance they were not as good as some professional teams of the time. They were probably better than many if not most college teams.
The boys played a brand of basketball that came and went; that was eclipsed by pro and college styles of play, not because it was better, but because the college and pro games were more economically viable.
But they accomplished the following.
Won Pan American Championship, 1901
Won Olympic exhibition title in St. Louis, 1904 Went undefeated in five of first eighteen seasons Won 111-straight games, 1908-10These things may be willingly forgotten. But by anyone that knows the game and really understands it, what this handful of boys did in the game’s early years stands with anything KU has done, anything the Harlem Globe Trotters did, anything UCLA did, anything that ever happened in the Rucker Leagues, anything any ethnic group has ever done , anything any religious group has done, anything that ever happened in the NBA, the ABA, or the Olympics.
And yet, we do not begrudge the future for not being like them. For being different. For evolving to fit the new economics that have always underpinned the game.
My father, who played high school and some college ball in the 1930s, was unequivocally mornful through my time in the game in the 1960s. The fundamentals of shooting and passing had been jettisoned as a result of the jump shot of Hank Luisetti (encouraged by Allen Disciple John Bunn at Stanford), by the height of the early footers and later by the jumping abilities of African Americans. Height, jumping, dunking and physical contact killed off most of the beauty and skill of the game he had grown up with and loved. And he was as absolutely correct in his way regarding his game, as you are regarding the game of our time.
Meso-Ballers would hate what their game has become, even as they would love the monies and education once could get from it today.
I am supremely confident that Wayne Selden, when he is in his 60s will look at the game of his time and feel pity for the players and the way they play it.
Loss is a bitch.
And when one reaches the time of one’s life where the game has morphed from the game we grew up with, the loss is enormous.
You are so right that today’s players really have little conception of what you are talking about.
I look at the OAD players today and I can increasingly see that they know nothing at all about anything that cannot be learned in AAU ball, when they start out at UK, Duke and KU. Nothing.
I can see that Cal just goes with it.
I can see that Coach K and Self still try to teach certain aspects of the old fundamentals, knowing their isn’t time, or personnel, or will to learn, to teach them all.
But Self, Cal and Coach K are practically anachronisms already.
But I don’t feel bad for them.
I feel bad for Kevin Ollie.
He and his generation of coaches and assistants are the ones that change are going to obsolete soonest.
Ollie grew up the old way. He probably even played some street ball, unlike Wayne, and Cliff, and Kelly.
Ollie coached in the L when it was still full of street ballers and full of coaches and assistants that had been street ballers.
I really believe the street is dead.
Frank Mason appears the only guy on the KU team, for example, that plays like he spent a lot of time on a playground, or even a neighborhood gym.
Ollie could easily soon going to be eclipsed by the AAU coaches and the college assistants that came up through the AAU system.
And if Ollie isn’t eclipsed, then he will soon be this dinosaur talking to kids about stuff that you and I would recognize but that the other assistant coaches and so on will have no clue of.
And the economics of the situation will not favor what Ollie know any better than the economics favored what Iba knew with in five years after he won two rings, or that Ted Owens knew after he didn’t quite win his rings, and got the force out, because everyone had forgotten the significance of what Owens’s knowledge of Bruce Drake’s shuffle, and Dick Harp’s and Phog Allen’s games meant in the changing game of basketball after Wooden did what he did and made persons think that Drake no longer mattered, that Harp and Allen no longer mattered.
Dean Smith adopted the high low post offense from Iba’s olympic team innovation, because he had been running Bruce Drake’s shuffle that he had picked up at Air Force Academy, but believed that the Shuffle was too hard for the guys to learn at UNC. Running the Shuffle meant you had to teach one offense for m2m and a different offense for zone. Smith thought neither of the offenses he taught really let his super athletic players impact the way they could if he just taught a single offense–Iba’s new high low.
Is it the game that is dumber today, or the players?
How can the OAD players of today not learn an offense that was devised in 1964 to be learned in 3 weeks by players invited to the Olympics?
Simple, today’s OAD players have only played AAU ball when they are asked to play high low. They don’t have the fundamentals the four year college players had that were invited to the 1964 Olympic games.
But the problem is: look at UK’s new guys trying to play the Dribble Drive. They really don’t have the fundamentals for that offense either.
The basic high low offense is a brilliant offense. And it is super easy to learn.
Frankly, I’ve looked at the Dribble Drive and the reason iits days are numbered is that it relies on basic play ground abilities and fundamentals. The high school coach that developed it was coaching mostly play ground kids at his high school. And as we both know, basic play ground abilities are disappearing rapidly. So: the Dribble drive may actually be tougher for players to master than Iba’s old high low. In fact, I suspect that one of the reasons that UK consistently performs so far below its talent levels is the Dribble Drive offense itself. Cal relies on OAD players that haven’t grown up on the play grounds. Even the poorest among them have been plucked off the play grounds by they time they are 13-14 and shoved onto the AAU conveyor belts. But I digress.
My point here is that the game changes, as the economic framework supporting it changes.
The Buffalo Germans and their way of playing the game were no doubt things of great beauty and fundamentals of their times fully mastered.
But the game changes.
The fundamentals of one era are often drastically different from those of another era.
But it does not mean there are no fundamentals being taught.
I am sure the AAU coaches are teaching a brand of fundamentals.
And economics of shoes and agents may finally determine those will be prevalent for a generation or so.
But that too will change.
The irony of all of this is that it could turn out that the High Low becomes (maybe already is) easier teach to these AAU players than the Dribble Drive. life is full of little ironies like this.
But of course the next big thing that will replace the Dribble Drive and the High Low is being born somewhere on some court more fitting to these times of disappearing playgrounds and rising foreign inference and most importantly of all, in the suburban gyms where the African Americans are moving into suburbia and playing with Caucasian Americans, Hispanic Americans and every other kind of Americans. Its going to produce something awesome.
Trust me.
Wayne is going to be okay.
He will probably turn out to be the guy that comes up with the new offense suited for the suburban AAU context.
Often guys that were great talents that get injured and have to learn to play another way give the game much deeper thought than the ones that didn’t.
Its the greatest game ever invented.
Rock Chalk!!!
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@drgnslayr You know, I love Wayne. But in December, I was at the Lafayette game. I arrived early and watched early warmups from the bleachers. Wayne is a really big guy. He is a good defender because he works hard at it. But, seeing how big he is, I can see why he might have a hard time keeping up with quicker 2 or 3 men. Also, why he isn’t quite the ballhandler that we maybe thought he was. But, I am very glad he is a Jayhawk.
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Wow… you blew me away with that post! Many thanks, my friend. And thanks for the history lesson!
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@drgnslayr So are you saying that Coach Self isnt able to develop his players? Im not being critical here, just inquisitory. Another question, what Are his clean and jerk numbers with Hudy? I actually wanna know. I mean, the kid is a beast. The strongest ever? For real? I mean, Tyrel Reed wasn’t the most athletic kid on the team but he was one of the strongest. I’d also put TRob on that list, he was a monster in person.
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@KUinLA, How about providing us some of your own insight on how we got the 11th with this team? Analytical in me would like to know because it HAS been painful, dumbfoundingly painful to watch KU play. I’d appreciate your analysis.
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Bad ball assumes you have the energy to go for 40 minutes. You have to have a very good guard and some forwards that don’t mind running up and down the court for their health. In WV case you have to be able to take a cussing without choking the coach to death. As they say WV kids come from places the grass don’t grow in the yard and no parents to bother you. Hugs is doing the raising.
That’s not Bill Self’s style and I can appreciate that to some extent. Some of these kids are not all that tough but BS can help that along and going to college can help that as well. It does take getting away from Mom and spending more time with other kids from other places in the world. That usually takes a couple of years.
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@KUinLA Are you referring to the Abrams tank that just blew up your POV for an 11th title?
HOWLING!
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@jaybate-1.0 Don’t recall if I ever said we wouldn’t win the conference this year. But I do recall your ridiculous post after the OU game, where you totally misunderstood what happened in the second half, and predicted we wouldn’t lose another conference game. Got a good laugh out of that, thanks!
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I mean no disrespect to the deep thoughts being posted.
However we are playing bad ball because HCBS is being stubborn. Now let me say I maybe wrong and HCBS is a genius. After all he gets paid really well to coach, and I just pound away at my keyboard with my arm chair beliefs. Yet this team’s real strength is shooting the three. It really is.
Now some make the claim that we lost this game or this game even though we shot the three ball at a high %. Well my rebuttal would be that have lost just as many games playing the high/low and not shooting the three at all. Just saying.
HCBS has been rock solid in conference play. I think that speaks for it’s self. However lets look at his tournament success or the lack of. Yes HCBS has had some success in the tournament, but man he’s had some stinkers too. As a fan ask yourself this question? How many times after exiting the tournament did we as fans say to ourselves, “Where was the three ball?” Also in those games that sent us home how many of those teams had a key player just get hot from three land and KU had no answer?
The high/low is a consistent way of winning games, but in the tournament crazy things happen, and if you can’t shoot the three? Well then you come home.
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@DoubleDD I wish you could at least enjoy a lil of this season. I’m thinking the 3 will go down tonight. Rock chalk!! Time to celebrate 11!
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Don’t worry about the three. We have already proven we can shoot the trey whenever we need to. Now that we don’t need to, we’ll be even more deadly when/if we choose to do so again.
Self proved everyone wrong. The team could win a title attacking inside.
No reason to think they can’t do it in the Madness.
And now that they have big averaging 22 ppg inside, won’t that open those treys up?
Yes, wide open.
Don’t fight this with deep think and resistance of what has worked.
Enjoy the bubbly.
And know that Self is now in position to completely switch gears yet again.
He is a wily one!
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Oh I am, I never give up it’s the one flaw I have LOL. However as I’ve gotten older I’ve learned to see things for what they are. I still root for a miracle when needed. ')
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I can’t wait for the game…I think we’re going to destroy the Hillbillies. Run outs galore. After this game, WVU might be tempted to stop payment on that “Huggie beat KU” bonus check.
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2015 is filled with young guards and wings, Freshmen and Sophomores. This has impacted the way KU plays ball. Whenever I feel the pain of watching this team it is often with the thought “this team is young”. No Seniors nor Juniors play in the backcourt and that will produce some painful viewing.
Self said that he held Mason (Soph) back last year and could have given him more opportunities at the point. Graham (Fresh) hurt his toe in December and missed too much of winter break. Selden (Soph) emerges from the shadow of Wiggins his Sophomore year and gets is first crack at being Alpha Male. Greene (Soph) learns over the course of the year that he needs to play better defense, which has improved, and he has had several moments to shine for the deepening of his confidence to shoot it. Svi (Fresh) may be the best prospect on the team, he got minutes early in the season to give him a taste and now he has had the time to settle into living in America while playing big time ball. Oubre (Fresh) has played his way onto the the final 10 for National Freshman of the Year–thanks for playing at Kansas Kelly!
Next year Kansas will NOT be young. For our rotation of Five in the backcourt we most likely get Four back from our 2015 Big XII Championship team and Oubre’s replacement is an elite prospect who has had a year of practicing and playing with the team. It would be fascinating to know what skills they will be having each player focus on over the summer.
This year Bill Self could not give in. Bill Self had to keep the course. Coach had to hammer into his players that the closer to the rim a shot leaves your hands the higher the percentage you will make it. Three bombs create long rebounds offering breaks the other direction are reduced. Attacking the glass on offense means you have to be aggressive and attack with your attitude, your body, your skill. Attacking is not about analytics and numbers and higher probabilities which tell you what your strengths are. No, your attitude is not a number. Putting the other team on their heels through attacking the defense in the paint is not an analytic. If you are looking too much at the box score you are missing the game on the court. It’s not just being a psychologist either. You have to believe in heart, and you must try to impose your will onto the game, and, letting it go with confidence to make wise, winning plays may be the most crucial of it all.
Next year we will have a wiser group. They will have had time to develop more skill. They will have had time to contemplate what they accomplished and be able to focus on what will make them even better. Next year we return a group that will reprise their roles and they will have an opportunity to rise, as a team, be a more mature brand of Bill Self Ball. Bill Self Ball is always a relationship with his players and always a work in progress.
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@jaybate-1.0 Wrong, wrong and wrong. You can’t just ‘shoot the trey whenever we need to.’ It’s not a light switch you can just turn on when you want. In fact, the 3 requires more confidence than any other shot. People who’ve played the game know that. And confidence needs to be built up and maintained. By putting it into practice. That’s part of the coach’s job.
And Bill didn’t win the conference by attacking inside. In fact, he almost lost it by attacking inside, going 2-2 in his last four, losing to a non-tournament team and almost losing at home (in Allen Field House?) to two probably non-tournament teams. In the Madness, we’ll face better teams than those. And not in Allen Field House.
And did averaging 22 ppg inside open up the 3’s in the last four games? Nope, not at all. Because opposing coaches are game-planning to shut down our 3game. That’s their best chance of beating Kansas.
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Howling!
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@jaybate-1.0 I’m thinking the word of the night is “BOOYAH”.Lots of rim rattling dunks created by Huggie’s 40 minutes of mildly annoying defense, which we’ll run into the ground tonight .I’m thinking Devonte has another 20 point night tonight.
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I’m thinking Self could skip the next two games and KU would still tie for the title.
Seriously?
My hunch is that he sat Devonte for the last game so he would be fresh as a daisy for this game.
I think Devonte and Frank are going to take turns guarding and running Staten till his butt falls off.
Self has always believed: cut off the head and the body dies.
This game will be about breaking Staten.
Staten is one man with not much behind him.
The press masks that by forcing the ball quickly away from Staten.
I believe Self will try to keep the ball in front of Staten, until he runs out of gas and then I believe they will drive him till he either drops, or gets in foul trouble.
Staten is the strength.
Break the strength and WVU will come undone.
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@jaybate-1.0 Run, run,young Jayhawks…like the wind!!!
LOL. I know…I know…
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Staten is DNP tonight…
