First Exhibition: Mason Was The Star
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Cliff is a beast. He’ll be a beast on most (or all) of D1 competition.
The question with him is fouls. Self relates him to an early Tar.
You guys are right… and the comp was small. I still think Cliff will make a huge impact immediately. But against real comp his propensity to foul will be an issue.
The guy is clearly stronger than TRob was, even in his last year at KU. I’m not comparing achievements. TRob had a freakish motor that continually sucked up rebounds like a hoover. I’m just saying Cliff is stronger. The potential is there.
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I respectfully disagree. Cliff is listed at 6’-8" 240 and TRob was listed at 6’-10" 237. Maybe freshman Cliff is slightly stronger that freshman TRob, hard to tell since we did not see much of TRob in his Freshman year, and maybe in the future Cliff becomes stronger that TRob; however, there is no way that current Cliff is stronger than Junior TRob. TRob’s weight was just about all muscle while Cliff still has a lot of baby fat; see the photos I posted of both players flexing in the same pose and you will see the difference, You might want to go back and watch some TRob videos and remember what a specimen he was then and still is now.
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@drgnslayr no way! TRob is a force!! He would have dunked all those last pm!
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I respectfully disagree with you guys.
TRob was a toothpick until he pumped iron for a couple of years. Cliff’s strength is mostly natural. I’m a big fan of TRob, but those are posing muscles. Pumping iron for a couple years isn’t going to match natural strength. Not even close. Cliff is shorter and heavier, and he’s already trimmed off the baby fat.
I’m not talking about dunking or whatever… I’m just talking about strength. Self has already discussed his monster strength.
Go to a gym and look at the poser guys. These aren’t guys that are going to challenge weightlifting records. You do a bunch of reps and build size and get the Hercules look.
We used to call them “air muscles.” If TRob was so strong he would be dominating in the league. Tar is stronger, because, once again, he has more natural strength. It is his strength that is earning him a career in the league.
TRob’s claim to fame is not his strength… it is his motor.
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Something is wrong with this thread. I can’t edit my post.
TRob isn’t known for his strength (except with KU fans), he is known for his motor.
test
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@drgnslayr Weird - I can edit it - hence the “test”.
What you wanna say bro - I’ll be your editor in chief.
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Awesome!
So let’s see what happens. Go up to that post and rewrite it the way you see it. I’m cool with that!
I want to know what you think about it.
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@drgnslayr It’s perfect the way it is - I wouldn’t change one damn word.
Well, maybe I would change it to say " TRob isn’t known for his strength (except with KU fans), he is known for his motor**/heart**."
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Once again, I respectfully disagree and I have the numbers to back up my position.
Robinson is rebounding very well in the League. Look at his rebound per minutes and you will see what I am talking about. In last night’s game against Cleveland the leading rebounder for Portland was Batum with 9 rebounds in 36 minutes, second was TRob with 8 rebounds in 11 minutes, Lopez, the center had 6 in 29 minutes and Aldridge, the only other PF on the team had 4 in 37 minutes. In comparison, Kevin Love had 10 rebounds in 36 minutes. So far for the season he is averaging 9 mpg and 5 rpg, which translates to a ridiculous 20 rebounds per 36 minutes, a statistic commonly used by the NBA. In comparison, the leader for the entire previous season among players with at least 20 games was Andre Drummond who averaged 14.7 rebounds per 36 minutes; TRob was 12 with 12.7 rebound per 36 minutes 2 places behind Dwight Howard who averaged 13.0; he is well ahead of that pace so far this year.
In short, while not a big scorer, TRob is a superior rebounder, a position that definitely requires strength, and something that Coach Self indicated is what he should concentrate in the NBA.
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http://www2.kusports.com/news/2011/may/11/jeff-withey-thomas-robinson-putting-pounds/
TRob is known for his strength and motor! What hurts him, length and shooting away from basket. Tweener.
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Xavier McDaniels was an excellent rebounder. He lead in college and did well in the pros. He was strong, but he wasn’t known for his strength like he was for his motor. TRob is a taller version of the “X-man.” Rebounding is a lot more than just who is the strongest. It is a factor, but it isn’t everything. You think the X-man was the strongest guy in college ball back in his day?
I’m not saying TRob is weak. Simply… he isn’t as physically strong as Cliff.
We can argue forever. It doesn’t matter because we all just have our opinions and we have nothing to prove it on. But I’ve seen a million guys who built air muscles like TRobs. If he lays off weightlifting for a few months he’s shrunk down to his old self. Sure, guys with air muscles have strength, just not as much. It’s more than just building muscle size. Plus… Cliff has a lot more weight on his frame. I heard he is 20 lbs heavier and two inches shorter. That is a huge difference from TRob and he’s cut.
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@drgnslayr so Hudy builds air muscle ? I’d like you to tell TRob and or Hudy that!!
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@drgnslayr “air muscles” is that what you get from playing air guitar?
What is an “air muscle”, do you have to keep an air compressor or an old bicycle pump near by to inflate them?
Or is an “air muscle” what Dick Vitale has? he just keeps getting louder and louder and just keeps blowing hot air out?
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You beat me to it. TRob is pure lean muscle. No basketball player or athlete that relies on speed would build big “air” muscles, they slow you down; lean muscles give you power, speed and endurance.
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@JayHawkFanToo you always say it better!
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“so Hudy builds air muscle ? I’d like you to tell TRob and or Hudy that!!”
The air muscles was TRob’s doing. Anyone can do that. I’ve done it and looked like the Hulk in a year. Hudy directs guys to improve strength for playing. A few guys do extra to build air muscles. AW3… same thing. Probably the guy who improved his strength most under Hudy was Withey… where was his bulk? Right… he didn’t have it because he wasn’t doing all those extra volume reps pumping up air.
You really don’t think all that mass is backed up equal to someone who built the same mass their entire life, do you?
Haven’t you guys ever pumped weights? In a week I can look huge, so can you.
I’m not saying TRob doesn’t have strength. Or that he didn’t improve his strength.
Has anyone in here ever gone to a gym? I really have to explain this?
Back in my college days we’d go to the gym at 5pm on Friday just to pump up before hitting the bars.
Selden is another guy like Cliff. Both arrived on campus with big time strength. I’m sure they both pumped some weight in HS but those guys mostly have the right genetics… or they’ve been pumping the right kind of iron since 7th grade. Selden is a beast in the weight room. I bet he can out dead lift TRob by a huge margin.
TRob picked up most of his size over two summers of lifting. Air muscles. Same with AW3. If we could judge strength by muscle mass, AW3 would have left for the NBA by now.
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Athletes that rely on speed and endurance don’t do heavy weight lifting and I seriously doubt TRob does that. Athletes such as TRob that need the power but also the speed and endurance would be crazy to do heavy weight lifting, they normally do lighter weights with more reps. No air muscles on TRob, Hudy would not have it.
BTW, TRob was measured at the NBA combine at 6’-7.75" without shoes and 244 pounds. Cliff Alexander was measured at 5 different camps at between 6’-8" and 6’-9" without shoes and between 240 and 254 pounds; KU currently lists him at 6’-8 and 240 pounds which means he has lost close to 15 pounds since arriving at KU and I expect him to lose another 10 before the end of the season. In other words, they are almost identical in size. Also, the X-Man is about the same height as TRob but 25 pounds lighter; he was a very strong and fast player and one of the very few that could actually play SF and PF…which he did.
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Thanks, I try.
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Maybe I read wrong on their size. Literally, everyone on here and KUSports has said TRob was taller by a couple of inches.
Guys training for strength don’t do big reps. That builds mass, not strength. Where was that clip showing Selden’s monster clean and jerk? Big time reps build mass. So you think Arnold Schwarzenegger had the strength to match his size? That guy was pumping reps of 250 lbs on the bench… a weight more than half of HS football players press.
I played with X for the most part of a summer and I’ve stood beside TRob. TRob is clearly taller by a couple of inches. X was strong… but like TRob, it was his motor that made him a good rebounder.
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TRob is 0.75" taller than Xavier, but keep in mind that nowadays, shoes make players at least 1.5" taller…
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Hey… thanks for going deep with me today! I definitely respect your posts and those from @Crimsonorblue22 .
I know we all respect each other and we can sometimes disagree and we can do it still liking each other and respecting each other!
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When everything else fails, we can always agree to respectfully disagree.
We are the Jayhawk extended family and like most families at time somewhat dysfunctional, but at the end of the day still a family…we even have a crazy uncle…I guess I will stop there.
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@drgnslayr Respect?
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LOL. Slayr. “Air muscles.” I totally get what you’re saying about muscle mass vs. strength. It’s more about physics/leverage, not muscle size. Torque vs. power. Shoulder width. Some guys can bulk up to freakish bicep size and never be “strong.” Cliff probably won’t ever have TR0b’s superman body, but he does have a naturally strong frame. Hudy is no dummy, so I suspect she is working on his hops/foot speed rather than his upper body strength. (Motor/heart to be determined.)
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Svi on D has length, keeps on his toes with an impressive active bounce and he consistently swivel’s his head which all conveys fantastic court presence. I couldn’t stop watching him on defense when he was on the court while thinking “this is why he was subbed into the game before Oubre”. HCBS commented a few days prior to the game that Kelly was taking chances on defense at bad times, particularly late in the possession. Greene did not start due to lack of Defensive vigilance in practice. Svi has been guarding men all summer, getting coached up by Mike Fratello, and there is a physicality that Svi possesses naturally though there was a composure, a polish to his defensive form that was surprising, exciting.
@HighEliteMajor I agree that CF left because he calculated Svi’s tools with what Self teaches, demands. Plus Graham keeps being described as the only natural 1 which means CF was feeling the crush of the sickly stacked 2 spot devouring his vision of what his college career was going to be. Svi, after being a late arrival to the team, is clearly competing with Greene and Oubre for playing time. Svi is not sharing the rotation pattern that Mickelson is earning. Mickelson seemed to be slotted into the rotation to get the role Lucas had last year. Svi was getting opportunity minutes in the Washburn game to earn a rotation role.
I felt clarity on CF’s departure while watching Svi. Is Svi’s mental retention going to out perform Oubre’s mental retention? Who’s light goes on fastest and brightest between now and the start of Big XII play? Does Svi loosen up and drain shots from beyond the arc consistently or do we see 3-point shooting in the 20 percentile range or low 30’s like we saw this summer on the international circuit?
Following the minute distribution of the 6 backcourt contenders, and watching who plays together and when, will most likely be a long winter’s novel of developing 3 Freshmen and blending them with 3 Sophomores.
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For what it’s worth, here was the sub pattern (until all 11 scholarship players were in the game):
Starters: Mason, Graham, Selden, Ellis, Trayor
First Sub: Greene for Graham; Alexander for Traylor
Second Sub: Graham for Mason, Svi for Selden, and Lucas for Ellis
Third Sub: Mason for Graham, Oubre for Greene, and Traylor for Ellis
Fourth Sub: Mickelson for Lucas
Greene and Alexander were first off the bench.
Next, Svi and Lucas.
Then Oubre.
Finally Mickelson.
Not sure what that says. But for those that look for changes, or patterns – which I do – I’ll be interested to see what Self does in Exhibition #2.
By the way, welcome @KJD … always good to add to the crowd here. In the sub pattern above, and based on Self’s comments, Greene seems to be ahead of Oubre and Svi at the moment. “At the moment” seems to be the operative phrase here. Small sample vs. Washburn. But even in the scrimmage, Svi was really active. Self even commented how well he did, but that the ball just didn’t go in the hole that night.
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In the after game presser, Coach Self indicated that he started all the returning players except Green because he did not pay defense in the previous practice and Graham took his place. Much like Senior night where all seniors start, I would not read much into the starting line up that he used for the Washburn game. My 2 cents.
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@HighEliteMajor Even Self is a creature of habit. Thanks for sorting through the roughage for those of us who were unable to see it. One of the early game last year I went to a BWW early enough to get a table & they actually had not yet installed the TWC hookup . Alternative was to watch outside on the patio in the cold at Tanners & waited over an hour for a table-for Pitt State?! Thanks HEM, but damn sure won’t be sending holiday thanks to Zenger this year. Any time you can do the recon we know we’ve the best on the ground available. Rock Chalk!!
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@JayHawkFanToo Agreed that this may not be perfect intel. We know Mason, Selden, Ellis, correct? Those are three starters. We know Cliff will make his way to the starting lineup much like Embiid did last season. So we’re left with one spot.
Logic says Oubre. But seeing Graham and Mason together, I’m not so sure.
But another wild card option in the starting lineup – Svi at the 2 (with Selden at the 3). I’m not necessarily saying this should happen and not saying that it will. But it does tie things together a bit.
Svi is agile, long, and has the tools to guard on the perimeter. That may not necessarily translate to “attitude” defensively.
But bear with me here … Svi can hit the three. He’s a clear threat and can stretch the defense. Of course, Self won’t set his lineup based on three point shooters.
But there’s more. Svi can penetrate. He demonstrated in the scrimmage and against Washburn that he has that skill set.
Very importantly, though, he is the third best ball handler on the team. I say that assuming that Selden has not made miraculous strides. It seemed clear to me that Svi could handle the ball in traffic. Important in my conclusion was that he was not looking down at the ball when he dribbled. Admittedly, I only got one look at it – no rewind review. Of course, saying he’s the third best ball handler doesn’t comment on the gap between #2 and #3, but I sense Svi is perhaps an equal distance between Mason/Graham and Selden, if not closer to the PGs.
If that is the case, that squares with Self’s preference for ball handlers on the court. So we have an agile and long guard, 6’8", who has the tools to play good defense, who can penetrate, who can hit the three, and who fits Self’s preference for ball handlers on the court.
Again, I don’t expect it. It’s a long shot. Clearly, my belief that Svi will be the presumptive starter at the two next season makes much more sense. It’s certainly a wild-card consideration.
The eye test is the best test. But the sample size is small, and thus the eyes could lie.
And remember, I never used “Larry Bird” and “Svi” in the same sentence. That was @jaybate-1.0.
@globaljaybird Thanks … hoping to get to Allen in person this next exhibition.
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@HighEliteMajor But there’s more. Svi can penetrate. He demonstrated in the scrimmage and against Washburn that he has that skill set.
This was my biggest knock on Wayne last year. May have been you that once stated, “Ball handlers are born, not made” From Bill’s comments yesterday in Topeka, Svi may be much more ready than we envisioned, with a much higher ceiling & much sooner. I posted many times that Wayne dribbles with his head down.
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Right on. Hudy is no dummy.
Consider Wayne as the perfect example.
Wayne is lighter, or at least, he definitely looks like a trimmer version than last year. So much so that I didn’t recognize him at first in this game. Wayne is trimmer, but he is a heck of a lot stronger than he was last year. He may not have the extra weight that he can leverage his strength against, but we don’t need him to block like an offensive lineman.
Wayne gets it, and he is definitely one of Hudy’s prized pupils… maybe he’ll end up as good on Hudy’s resume as Jeff Withey!
It is looking like Cliff gets it, too. He’s already trimmed up considerably.
Hudy is not about building muscle mass. Hudy is all about building usable strength and increasing athletic performance. That has really nothing to do with muscle mass… in fact, muscle mass usually gets in the way. That’s why you will never see basketball players (in general) get huge, massive muscles. If it was to their benefit, they would already be doing it and the league would look like a bunch of Arnie’s running up and down the court. The guys in the league that have some mass and play well (like LeBron) build strength over a long period of strength training and players like LeBron have the right genetics for the level of mass he has. I’m sure a guy like LeBron (with his genetics) could build big air muscles in a month or so, and he would not see improvement in his game… it would be a liability. That is why he doesn’t go that way.
@KUSTEVE - love it, man!
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Agreed. When Svi and Selden are together I can see Selden at the 2 and Svi at the 3; I guess it would boil down to matchups and which player matches better with the other team.
I think you have it right that a few games into the season, Alexander starts, much like Embiid did last year…way too much talent to ride the pine.
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Note: Too long, so I moved this to its own thread.
