Wayne's bounce is back after surgery.
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@drgnslayr agree!
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@drgnslayr I don’t know - Perry is no T-Rob, but I tell you what, when he’s on the court, I’m pretty confident. His smarts outweighs his inadequacies by a lot. He can score (about) anywhere, he rebounds, passes - MAKES FREE THROWS.
For some reason, he’s been the go to scapegoat and I’m not convinced it’s deserved.
I likes me some Perry Ellis. And his slacks fit me nicely too.
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I hear you. I’ve been a Perry fan since he was in junior high.
You said it right… Perry can do it all. Why he takes heat is because sometimes he doesn’t do it. Sometimes he’s completely invisible on the court. Sometimes he lets his man overshadow him.
Anything I push on Perry is for his own good. He has NBA potential but he hasn’t proven yet he is ready to duke it in the man’s league. Most of the time, players get their cred and their swagger from playing street ball. Because on the street you have to earn your talk and your walk.
Perry spent too much time in quiet gyms working on his shot and his moves… too often like a boxer shadow boxes.
If he would spend a summer playing rough ball on the streets, he’d get pushed around until he learned to stick up for himself. Once he would do that, a big light bulb would go off in his head and his future would become a light brighter real quick. It would also come a lot easier for him.
I’m not challenging his toughness. Perry has plenty of toughness. He has as much discipline as any Jayhawk who has ever worn the uniform. He just needs to develop swagger. He just needs to stop backing down. He needs to come out on the court with a message going off in his head that “this is my court… I own this and I’m ready to prove it.”
I likes me some Perry Ellis, too. Less the slacks, more the tops!
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Perry is a finesse player.
That’s all I have.
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I start with the givens that Perry is a hard worker and he is intelligent.
From these givens, it follows that Perry is likely to follow slayr’s advice (or come to it on his own) and bounce it through the asphalt jungle this summer some.
Does anyone recall Cole playing a game in the Rucker League in NYC? I have this vague recollection that he played there once and made some plays that got him some strokes, or something. Perry should go there, or Philly, or LA, WITH someone from their that knows the ropes and just play for two weeks. That would help him more than anything at this stage.
I really think there is a great player lurking inside Perry Ellis, not just a scorer, which he has already shown himself to be at times.
But there is a kind of spontaneity to his game that seems lacking and it is a kind of spontaneity that even the no talents on the playgrounds develop. The playgrounds are not helpful just because you get roughed up. Its the whole flipping fun of it, too. Its a fun way to play the game. And Perry has worked so hard at the game that sometimes he does not look like he is having enough fun at it.
I remember how much it seemed to help Jeff Withey just to travel with a Christian team over seas that one summer. Sometimes I think guys like Perry need to get out of the excellence rut and into the fun rut for a month or so. Find themselves. Find THEIR games, not just keep playing the game they’ve been taught.
The Designer is still The Designer.
He just needs a little tougher, and more spontaneous cut to his suit.
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@drgnslayr @nuleafjhawk @HighEliteMajor
The “problem” with Perry, if there is a problem to be pointed out, is that he is a tweener. For a high-level D1 program, he’s an undersized post player. I mean, Wiggins is just as tall and has a longer wingspan and standing reach, but could we imagine trying to make him play the 4 regularly? Surely not. I can’t envision Perry having an NBA career as a post player.
However, early on he was pegged as an interior player throughout middle school & high school. It’s the case with a great number of players who are tall. They are the tallest on their team, therefore go stand under the basket and we’ll throw it into you. So that’s where his skill set grew the most. He was afforded some chances to handle the ball, shoot outside, etc. in high school, but by and large he developed as a post player.
So he comes to KU, and it is a little bit of the same thing. His greatest chance for minutes at the 3 thus far in his Jayhawk career was during his freshman year. There wasn’t an embarrassment of riches in terms of wing players. There was Releford, and that was pretty much it (all apologies to AW3). However, we were thin in the post with only Withey & KY, so he got all his minutes backing up those two. Then last year we have Wiggins & Greene, and going forward we look pretty stacked on the wing with Greene, Oubre, & Svi. So Perry will keep plugging along in the post.
And when I say “it is a little bit of the same thing”, the difference is in high school he could have played the 3 and likely been the best at that position of anybody on the team. At KU, he’s not seeing time there because there are better players at that position than him.
At any rate, I see a great many posters apologizing for guys like EJ, Tharpe, etc. by saying they weren’t natural PGs and they were playing out of position. With Perry, while the post may be his “natural” position in that that’s where he honed his skills the most, his tweener body type has and likely will continue to limit him from being a prototypical post player.
So he is not going to be a prototypical post player. He can still be largely successful using his skills. He very well could lead the team in scoring next year. But he is never going to be TRob or one of the Morris Twins. If you’re expecting him to, that’s really on you. He isn’t going to be the guy that bangs away and averages 10+ rebounds per game. He’s not going to be able to defend guys like Cameron Ridley without giving ground. There are games where he is going to be physically overmatched. If Self is going to play him in the post, it is up to him to game-plan and compensate for that.
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Perry is a tweener because he plays soft. The height argument is a cop out.
I’ll give you an example.
Perry is 4 inches taller than one of the best power forwards to ever play in the NBA.
Charles Barkley.
Perry plays soft and unless he changes, he doesn’t have a NBA career, period. He plays soft for a 3… for a 2… and even for a PG.
I hope he figures it out. He has two more years to do it.
@jaybate had some good points. The Designer is still the Designer… but maybe he’ll go off and develop some aggression. Withey was a perfect example. He also came to KU and was not only frail and weak, but he also played soft. He left KU a man, no question. How many times did he bleed his senior year and still finish games with fire?
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@icthawkfan316 Good stuff, ict. Basically, a finesse player who is a tweener (height-wise) is not a prime candidate to thrive at the 4 position in the Bill Self System. Yeah, Perry might benefit from an extreme big city playground toughening process; but facts are facts. With Greene and Oubre battling it out at the 3 position, Perry and Traylor will continue to share minutes at the 4 unless Mickelson or Lucas should make a giant step forward, freeing Alexander to play some 4. Evidently, Bill Self has told Greene that the 2014-15 Jayhawks can expect a 9-10 man rotation. Practices should occur at premium ticket-selling level.
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@drgnslayr Truer words have never been spoken my friend
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@drgnslayr I couldn’t disagree with you more.
Your example isn’t even a very good one. Yes Charles Barkley is shorter than Ellis. But what was Barkley’s nickname? The round mound of rebound. Emphasis on round. He was a wide body who could throw his butt around and move guys. Look at Perry. Can you honestly tell me that is a guy who is built for a 4? No way.
Pointing out the exception (Barkley) does nothing to disprove the logic that post players generally need to be taller & thicker to succeed. If you don’t think that, start advocating to play Selden in the post. I mean, he’s probably Barkley’s height, so he should have a HOF NBA career as a power forward, right?
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The height combined with size is a big argument. You mention Barkley, but he is a “one of a kind” player at that position and not the typical PF. Barkley is listed at anywhere between 6’-4" and 6’-6", where Perry is listed at KU at 6’-8" which means he is closer to 6’-6 and at least 30 pounds lighter than Barkley. This is the equivalent of saying that Calvin Murphy (5’-9" ) , one of the better PGs of all time or Spud Webb (5’-7" ) - he won the NBA slam dunk competition - were typical PGs, they were not. Look at the perhaps the three top PF of all time, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone and Dirk Nowitzki; Duncan and Nowitzki are both are right around 7 feet and Malone at 6’-10" and all are at around 250 pounds…or look at the starting PFs for the last 4 teams in the NBA post season, SA- Duncan, OKC - Ibaka, Ind. - West, Miami - Bosch. they are all at least 6’-10 and at least 235 pounds; these are the typical PFs in the NBA, not Barkley.
If Perry makes to the NBA, he will have to play the SF; he is just not big/tall enough to play PF. He has a decent 3-point shot and if he continues to develop it, there is no reason why he could not be an effective 3 in the NBA.
Playground play is overrated and the downside is greater than the upside. I have heard lots of coaches indicate that they spend the first 3 month of practice getting playground players to rid themselves of all the bad habits they acquired and to learn to play team basketball the right way. This is why coaches will not allow players to play ion summer leagues. Perry Ellis would be better served playing against Michelson, Lucas, Traylor and other former KU players (including NBA) that routinely spend time in Lawrence during the summer.
Just my opinion.
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Ict, I started writing my post a while ago and got sidetracked by a phone call. By the time I posted it, I noticed that you had written basically the same thing about Barkley.
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@JayHawkFanToo Yeah. It was too easy to shoot holes through.
Like I say, Perry is not built to play the 4 as it is traditionally played at a high D-1 level. It’s not a cop out. If anything, as slayr perfectly illustrated, I think it’s a cop out on Self’s part to just say “soft” instead of finding ways to maximize the talent of his personnel.
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On the Perry Ellis debate:
He’s probably reasonably close to 6’8" if draftexpress is to be believed, but the more concerning fib is that he’s listed at 225, but doesn’t look nearly that size (I’d believe 215 tops). Compare Marcus Morris’ guns to Perry’s. They’re similarly size players (although Marcus is slightly taller, they have nearly identical wingspans and reach), but Morris has about 15 - 20 lbs on Ellis. Perry and Marcus also possess similar games (3pt shooting, attacking off the dribble from the high post), but Morris was able to develop a sweet turnaround J on the block to help him score over taller defenders, and Perry has demonstrated no such tools to date. If Ellis really wants to maximize his draft potential, he should take a few strokes from Georges Niang. Despite being both shorter and a worse shooter, Niang’s bevy of shot fakes, turnarounds, and sheer patience (as well as +15 - 20 lbs) allow him to do a much better job of scoring over size than Ellis.
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“Playground play is overrated and the downside is greater than the upside. I have heard lots of coaches indicate that they spend the first 3 month of practice getting playground players to rid themselves of all the bad habits they acquired and to learn to play team basketball the right way. This is why coaches will not allow players to play ion summer leagues. Perry Ellis would be better served playing against Michelson, Lucas, Traylor and other former KU players (including NBA) that routinely spend time in Lawrence during the summer.”
You may be right on that one… as long as those guys can forget they are teammates and push hard on each other.
Street ball does produce bad habits… but I’m not sure Perry’s designer mold can be changed so far into bad habits at this point. The main reason I’d like to see him play street ball is for the attitude. There is no place else where guys dish plenty of cr@p on each other and there is a power hierarchy. If a player comes in too cocky, everyone goes after him. If a player comes in too soft, everyone goes after him.
It might work well to see if Bill could get a few of his old players from the league to come to Lawrence over the summer to play some pickup ball with the current roster. Might be good for all of them to get a taste of ball played by players who have to earn their wage at the next level.
I’m for whatever it takes to get Perry to play more aggressive and not to back down when the going gets tough. He needs some swagger. It’s important for his game, but also his teammates. Constructive swagger is contagious, so is giving up and carrying your head low walking up the court with shoulders slumped.
I think we all appreciated players like TRob and others who held their heads high all the time and didn’t back down.
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Let me make 1 point about Perry Ellis: He is a finesse player (agree with HEM on this). Very much like a UNC-type forward–> can do lots of things, but not a banger.
Compare 6’8 Thomas Robinson’s playstyle with that of 6’8 Perry Ellis. Perry Ellis mans the position vacated by Thomas Robinson, temporarily staffed by the all-hustle, featherweight Kevin Young.
Perry Ellis plays for Bill Self. What that means as a versatile 4 in a playstyle that features everything Ellis can do…but also requires a certain level of toughness and defense and rebounding.
Not saying Ellis is deficient…but lets just see if he can excel at ALL the things that Self wants out of his bigs. Before TRob, it was Marcus Morris. Before Marcus it was Darrell Arthur and Darnell Jackson.
I saw that interview with Traylor + Ellis, and Ellis was doing his best to sound vocally a lot like street-tough kid Traylor (who is a blossoming success story in his own right). I definitely like Traylor’s attitude and aggressiveness on court. It was reported in a Wichita paper story about Ellis how he is intensely competetive–>so lets say his inner-fire is strong.
I think Perry Ellis will shine strong this year! Got high hopes for him! Should be fun to see him, Traylor, Lucas, Mason, Greene, and Selden just explode. We know BigCliff brings alot of nasty to the table, and so does Oubre, but we’ll see how long it takes the new kids to show “it” at the college level, playing for a pressure cooker royalty school.
RCJH
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@drgnslayr OK… Perry needs to learn one, and only move, and he will score 20+ a game … “PERRY, USE THE HEAD FAKE” … “PERRY, USE THE HEAD FAKE” If I had the money, I’d rent a billboard across from Jayhawk Towers that said … PERRY, USE THE HEAD FAKE!
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@KUSTEVE jethro, would love to see some better defense from Perry!
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Wayne’s bounce is back after surgery. That’s positive news!!! The more I read this thread, the more I am starting to think Perry Ellis should transfer. Year 3 in Coach Self’s system, he will be just fine. Looking forward to another great season from the Kansas Jayhawks!
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@KansasComet Haha, I think you were being sarcastic about the Ellis transfer…I know he has things in his game that he’s working on, and we know he’s a smart kid–> So I’m hopeful he puts it all together this season. Maybe its unfair to expect him to have someone else’s personality (like TRob aggression), but I think he sees Traylor’s hustle and passion, and sees a newcomer like Cliff Alexander, and I’m sure ultra-competetive Ellis will up his game to be able to run with those guys.
Heck, Ellis is likely going to be asked to teach the young guys and show by example as coach walks thru plays in practice sessions…
2014-15 is going to be a fun year!
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All but Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk will be on campus this week to work out and play pick up games for the rest of the summer. This is when we start seeing some action and hearing about the team. Last year Wiggins was supposed to play with Canada and ended up enrolling for summer classes so hopefully Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk will do the same? This time of year always gets me excited for next year!
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@ralster You nailed it. Merely pointing out that he is an asset to this team. Remember, TRob had a great year 3, and then he was gone.
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“I saw that interview with Traylor + Ellis, and Ellis was doing his best to sound vocally a lot like street-tough kid Traylor (who is a blossoming success story in his own right).”
This may sound shocking to many in here… but it is not unrealistic to think that Traylor could bypass Perry for minutes and end up having more pro potential than Perry.
Traylor clearly is the better defender, and he showed a tremendous amount of improvement at scoring last year. If he can stay on that same path of offensive improvement, he’ll challenge Perry for more minutes.
This is all good for Perry. Perry needs to be pushed into playing more aggressive and especially improving his defense. His poor defense is a glaring deficiency in his game.
There is no reason why he can’t improve his d and overall aggressiveness. Now… he’ll be pushed to do so more than he ever has been pushed in his life.
I am of the belief that the real competition for minutes this year will be highlighted by Perry vs Bam-Bam.
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@drgnslayr Agreed. I still love what Perry Ellis could become (in the areas he needs work on). Its like Traylor is missing what Ellis has, while Ellis is missing what Traylor has. Man, meld the two together, and you get Marcus Morris.
Ive decided Thomas Robinson should remain in his own category, as he and Tyshawn were the rocks that defined the 2012RunnerUp squad. He did contend for NPOY, as well. When is the last time a KU forward contended for NPOY?
Agree totally that Ellis, Lucas, Traylor, BigCliff should be a great positive battle as they look to make each other better, while looking at KU history at the lofty performance bar “set” by TRob, Marcus, Embiid, Shady, Collison, Simien, etc…
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" I still love what Perry Ellis could become (in the areas he needs work on). Its like Traylor is missing what Ellis has, while Ellis is missing what Traylor has. Man, meld the two together, and you get Marcus Morris. "
That says it all!
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@drgnslayr perhaps if Perry lived in some cars in the winters of Chicago, would make a difference! Heard quite a few past players were back in town to scrimmage us. A little playground action?
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That is the case… and always will be. Players coming back and get in on pickup games. I hope this summer, Self tells these guys coming back to play hard on Perry, push him, and play head games. Put Perry through a summer of “tough love basketball.”
Perry really does have the skills to be a solid player at the next level. But he won’t get there without developing some well-earned swagger!
