Who is Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk?
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@Crimsonorblue22 --My job has carried me away from my home the last 20 years. However I have a little money saved and my kid is about to graduate from high school and is going to attend KU.
Now I know what you thinking but I had no influence on her decision 
Now that you mention it, I knew that. Excuse me Iām sucking done a few cold ones and working on my old power Ram. Sheās a beauty. 3/4 ton baby blue 4x4 pulling machine.
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Who is Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk? A member of the Human Race.
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@KansasComet sounds good to me- plus coach likes him!
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So is he there? Sightings?
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@justanotherfan Wow, this issue twists people in knots. I keep seeing no white kids playing bb here, yet we see brilliant white basketball players coming over from Europe all the time. So, I think this is an American thing. I think white kids gave up trying to compete with black kids in this country because they thought they were inferior physically. And many times they were. Yet we see hard nosed white kids succeed all the time in the game.
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Would not be a bad thing for Frankamp or Mason to red shirt, if jam at the 1-2 positions becomes too crowded this season. Terrific potential for each of them, as program players who opt to stay the full course. At least, they are not likely to be ushered out the door.
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Look, when talking about āraceā, we sometimes get sidetracked by our attempts to abstractly analyze perceived ādifferencesā in race. And we all are susceptible to the human tendency to āsummarizeā, or āboil it all downā.
Why canāt we judge each athlete individually, with all of the scientific and stastical analytics? Why cant we realize that what makes one athlete run faster or jump higher is not only their % of muscle mass, but ALSO their RATIO of fast-twitch to slow-twitch muscle fibers? Iām not saying anything new here, and most of us have heard of this. Or get even more scientific and study the proportions of mitochondria inside muscle cells, and if that also is a variation between people in general and outstanding athletes by comparison. A sports-science study of muscle variations between non-athletes vs average Div.1 athletes vs elite-level athletes (like Wiggins) Iām sure has been done, as that is where some of these differences are already known from.
All this talk about āeffortā or āwant it moreā is only the psyche part, isnt it? Look at a 5star athlete like Elijah Johnson, who absolutely has the size, weight, athleticism, vertical jump, etcā¦to be a prototypical NBA guard. The ONLY reason he didnt make it, is because he was an inconsistent performer due to inconsistent motivation. He simply could not āharnessā that inner fire except on rare occasion. Nice guy persona. Let me sum him up in another way: EJ couldnt make himself play like a Russell Westbrook. Frankly, if he could have, then 5star (EJ) would have been able to unseat BStar very early onā¦not having to wait until Brady graduated.
And since I have a medical background, letās not shy away from the genetics discussion, in a general sense: just look at everyday people, or even kids playing on a schoolyard and see the variations in size/mass/bone structure that humans come in. Thank or dont thank your parents and forefathers. And what you do with what theyāve genetically given you is partly up to you, partly up to fate. And it is well-known that there are racial differences in the bodyās response to certain medicines (certain blood pressure meds, for example). And just think for a moment, as our forefathers passed on to us a genetic metabolic āflawā such as a tendency to diabetes (Native Americans even more than the entire population), there could also be genetic ānot-flawsā (variations) that endow enhanced metabolism or muscle performance.
I would postulate that high-level athletes are simply the few who exceed the norm, in physical performance, be it due to genetic muscle size and composition variations, or coupled with a larger size than most other humans. Then you throw in coordination, will-power and determination and work ethic, and maybe you get a star player. Be that Jared Allen (DTackle), or a Ray Lewis (LB) or a Deion Sanders (DB) or a Michael Jordan (G). MJ was the first in his family to be over 6ft tall. Couple his determination, and you see the legend. His 5ā11 brother Larry had alot of determination, but wasnt āgiftedā physically.
I prefer to simply admire elite athletes/superstars for the truly rare, gifted individuals that they are. They simply exist at the far one end of the bell-shaped curve of human physique and physiology. I dont care what color they are, as thatās only the top 2mm of skin. Itās all about what you were given genetically, and what you do mentally and physically to maximize what you do have. Thatās a fine summation, but it plays out brutally in the sports world: 6ft 160lb Connor Frankamp may have mentally and physically maximized every aspect of his ability, but he would simply be outclassed by 6ā3 200lb Kirk Hinrich (or Russell Westbrook) who is equally mentally and physically maximized in every aspect of his ability. Connor Frankamp should be a starter from Day 1 at a lesser school. Making him compete against bigger, faster, stronger guys (of whatever color) puts him at a permanent disadvantage. Man, this is nothing new. Thereās Div1, Div2, Div3, and NAIA levels of competition. So far he is proving a better decision maker than Naadir Tharpe, but his development and actual real mpg remains to be seen, as he is locked in a tremendous battle with his own teammates.
My personal taste is to root for superstars. Seeing the ālittle guy winā is not for me, as that is less predictable, less reliable. I am a royalty program alum and fanāso why would I root for the āunderdogāāthat would be like rooting for the killer-Bās or UNI or somethingā¦nope, not me. The hope of a non-royalty school fan/alum may be to simply āmake the Danceāā¦we expect much more than that. High level play. There is a reason Self and Calipari and Kryzyewski try to recruit elite-ranked athletes. So I like & expect high-level play already, as a concept. Rooting for superstars means I am rooting for exceptional levels of play. So I like MJ. I like LeBron. I like DWade. I like Chalmers, who is a 6ā1 athletic freak. So is Kirk Hinrich. So is Thomas Robinson. I liked Dirk Nowitzki a few yrs ago. Micah Downs was an athletic freak and a MickeyD, but he was forced to compete against some equally skilled guys in college. Simple law of sportsāthereās always going to be someone bigger, stronger, faster than youā¦and Micah exactly ran into such types ahead of him on the KU roster. Same thing happened to Andrew White. Outcompeted.
Lets see what Embiid and Wiggins desire and motivation (& luck) can do with their ultra-rare physiques.
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@REHawk I agree that Frankamp maybe ought to redshirt, as he stands to gain the MOST out of physical maturation that occurs as young men go from age 19-21. Trade a skinny-body year for a chiseled 10+ pound heavier-body year 3 yrs later. Its his best bet, considering the competition and physicality he is facing on his own teamās roster. And if Devonte Graham has true leader/PG instincts and a 35%+ trey gun, then the writing is on the wall for Frankamp. It wont be a Shocker, but he mightā¦
Regarding 5ā11, 190lb Frank Mason: Really dont think he redshirts. Why? He already has a physicality and aggression to play this game. He is already a chiseled, tough body. He got the most mpg of any guard off the bench. He just needs the experience to hone his decision-making, which already got better as the season went on. We NEED Frank Mason this year. You cannot ask your most experienced guard to redshirt, and hope that Graham āgets itā. What frosh PG under Bill Self has ever shined in Yr1, other than Sherron? And Sherron was not asked to be a starterā¦only to perform in stretches, which he thrillingly did so. Not even the #1 rated PG (Selby) was able to come and run Selfās offense, although he got jobbed/robbed of precious 8games of nonconference play which could have created a much better, experienced Selby by Tournament timeā¦(& dont forget the injuries x 2).
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@ralster I get what your saying about Mason and you may very well be right, my only question is if Self was completely sold on him, why didnāt he get those crucial minutes in the NCAA tournament (the most important minutes of the entire season) and instead Self felt more comfortable with CF? Obviously all the minutes and experience he garnered throughout the season over CF wasnāt enough for Bill to feel comfortable with him when Tharpe shat the bed.
I donāt want to place too much importance on a two game sample, but what was he preparing Mason for if not those situations?
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Sasha kaun is playing on NBA network, about over.
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@icthawkfan316 Mason can penetrate and dish, heāll be wiser-I hope, this year. CF is a very safe pt and a great shooter. Thereās a place for them both. Match ups will play into it, height is a concern. Anxious to see both of them stronger and have quicker feet - defense- next fall!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Well I semi-agree on your assessment of Mason. He can penetrate. Never saw a lot of quality dimes dropped by him off his drives, and often his shots off his drives were wild and unsuccessful (a la Tyshawn for a good portion of his career).
Regardless, it doesnāt answer my question as to why Self went with CF over Mason in the NCAA tournament. Against two completely different teams.
Iām not saying CF isnāt the right choice to red-shirt if it comes to that. Maybe he is. But the decisions and quotes by Self in the NCAA tournament regarding CF give me pause about anointing Mason the starter. I think it may come down to what Graham provides and who is the better compliment to him and the rest of the perimeter.
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@icthawkfan316 just a guess, needed pts against Stanford, needed safe against eastern whoever. I think coach likes masons, make it happens moves. Now, make it happen under control!!
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Your fine, @DoubleDD !
I was just trying to prevent us from being blasted by someoneā¦ and I do what I do best - when trying to defuse something Iām the one with the match!
Back to the main subjectā¦ Iām liking Sviatoslavā¦ but I am like everyone else and limited to a few youtube clips and press releases. Just seeing a kid who understands (and knows how to establish) scoring space is a huge find for KU. Iām trying to think of the last guard KU had that understood scoring spaceā¦ hmmmā¦ we probably have to go back to Langford!
The very least he can do is teach other players how to create scoring space!
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Whewā¦a day on this board makes a big difference. I had a long night at the hospital and thought reading some encouraging feeds would be nice. So, the banter is back to ānormalā or at least what we are capable of discussingā¦players, recruiting, and KU basketball.
When we all speculate about what HCBS will do with various players, itās all about his options. Iāve said it over and again that he plans according to pieces. If we get āMick,ā I think it then changes his options.
I agree that it may be to Connorās advantage to RS and take time to really develop, grow, and improve his skills. Why not? It certainly wonāt hurt. It can only help him at this point.
I also agree and like what is said about Mason. I think Mason is far above Connor in many basic skills and his ceiling for shooting is higher. They both exhibit excellent skills. I just think that right now, Mason is the nod for pg, with Graham to back him.
Connor RS would also allow Green to be the backup at the 2 and the 3 for Oubre and Selden. These guys are just a bit above Connor when it comes to most other skills than shooter. Connor is obvious one of the best shooters on the team, but could use some time to polish. Heās a hard worker.
Now, here is where your options get sticky. If āMickā signs, then Selfās options just increase tremendously. I think we may let our āfeelingsā interfere with what is best and right for the team. I hate to say it, but if Connor doesnāt bring his skill set up to par with his shooting, he may well be an unfortunate candidate for the dreaded transfer. We all know his skill sets are lacking, but truth of the matter is D1, KU, and B12 players have to bring some major talent and skills to the court.
If āMickā signs, it just might signal something for a player or two. But if they are patient, theyāll play, but just not as much. This is my point throughout this entire thread. If you have a choice between āMickā or Connor, itās a difficult choice because Connor is a Kansas boy. However, heās a soph and if āMickā comes, many believe he will only be two years, this would make Connor a senior and his senior yr might just be his identifying year and ready to impact as we all think Connor can impact at KU. Connor wouldnāt compete with āMickā but he would be a casualty of pt by default for mere numbers. If Oubre leaves in two years, āMickā would be a great piece to have for one more year. Green would also be able to go the distance and would be a senior if Oubre and āMickā all draft. Regardless of what you think or feel, itās exciting.
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@truehawk93 sooooo, you ok?
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I get that race is a touchy subject. I do. I get that itās easy to try to explain away the obvious. I get that itās uncomfortable. I get that one can look at exceptions can always be used to try to attack what we see. We rely on silly explanations to make us feel better. We make silly, irrelevant arguments. Being different doesnāt make us āunequal.ā
The races are not the same. Does anyone really think that we are all the same and we are essentially spray painted? How stupid is that.
The races originated in varying areas of the world and adapted to those conditions. Those with the traits that permitted survival were more apt to procreate than those that didnāt. Does anyone dispute the āsurvival of the fittestā theories? Those with the physical (and Iām sure mental) adaptions needed for the region of the world they lived in were more apt to survive. Does anyone really dispute that? Is someone with a deadly genetic disorder more or less likely to procreate? It depends on the onset. But if death occurs before age 10, for example, that genetic disorder is not going to get passed on.
Now, skin color, per say, means nothing really other than the pigmentation adaptation to sun exposure. But the general physical characteristics of those that have certain skin color is certainly passed along. Those that possess a certain skin color, based on their region, have other adaptive characteristics.
A very good doctor friend of mine (who happens to black) pointed out to me that there are number of genetic conditions that afflict folks based on race. He has no qualms in agreeing to the differences.
He reminded me that blacks have a significantly higher incidence of sickle cell anemia than other populations. It afflicts 1 out of 500 blacks, but only 1 out of 36,000 hispanics. Most all research points to malaria as the source of the genetic alterations, and thus blacks in Africa were much more susceptible. That is, simplistically, the sickle cell itself helped ward off malaria. Thus those with the sickle cell trait were more apt to survive malaria. Malaria, over the history of man, is considered one of the largest killers. This trait continues in blacks today. It is not hard to imagine that other adaptive, survival of the fittest, traits would continue through today. The sickle cell trait is more prevalent in areas where malaria is an issue, itās just more focused on blacks.
Another interesting item my friend pointed out to me ā those of Scandinavian decent are much more prone to type 1 diabetes due to a genetic defect. Same with cystic fibrosis with northern Europeans. A higher prevalence. He noted other examples to me.
He also pointed me to that there have been multiple studies regarding athletes and muscle development, etc. His opinion was that discussion is constrained by the āeveryone is the same mentality.ā
Below is a link to an author he was aware of, and an explanation that is worth reading. Just as information.
http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p1.php
Iām going to try to be done with this topic. Itās very difficult to discuss it productively. And it distracts from what we really like to discuss.
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I agree that it may be to Connorās advantage to RS and take time to really develop, grow, and improve his skills. Why not?
@truehawk93 You answered your own question later in the post. You donāt want to redshirt if a transfer is a possibility. If he redshirts then later decides to transfer, he burns a year of eligibility. That is why he might be hesitant to take a RS. He might look at the situation and his competition - Mason & Graham - both of whom will likely be on the team for most if not all of his eligibility, and decide he wants to have 3 years eligibility someplace else.
I would also disagree with the statement āwe all know his skill sets are lacking.ā I would agree that he is less athletic than his competition. But skills - ball handling, passing, shooting, defending - I would grade him pretty even with Mason, maybe slightly better overall.
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@icthawkfan316 Seems many of us thought CS should take a redshirt last season, and Self said he thought he could help us. Self was right there. CF may very well be our starting PG. But does he fit Selfās profile of a āleadā guard? I donāt know. If I had to predict, heāll be the backup PG and part of a four man rotation. He proved his worth and convinced me. I see no reason why he canāt win the job. CF, Selden, Oubre, Mason or Graham, and Greene as the 5th guy. CF seems to give us ball handling, ball security, and shooting. Perfect option.
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@Crimsonorblue22 oh yea, thanks for asking. Just had a 10 yr old that came into the trauma unit. Pretty rough. But hopefully heāll be ok. I have a 11 yr old daughter, soon to be 9 yr old second daughter and a soon to be 7 yr old son. Kids are the toughest patients in trauma.
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@icthawkfan316 I may have failed to clarify. I donāt want anyone to transfer at all. But if it happens for Self to find the right pieces, then unfortunately, it could happen. I think this group could be special if theyāll stick it out all the way through the end. Itās hard to say what will happen. Trust Self that it will work out with or without āMick.ā
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@HighEliteMajor @DoubleDD Thanks both for chiming back in on this topic. To answer your rebuttal ddd, I think thatās kind of the crux of things. Is the reason white guys own the high jump because thatās where they choose to compete or is it because there is something about being Northern/Eastern European that makes you a better high jumper? I simply donāt think the answer is as self evident as you and HEM do.
I get that itās easy to try to explain away the obviousā¦ We rely on silly explanations to make us feel better.
I take particular umbrage at a statement like this not because itās not PC, but because itās antithetical to scientific inquiry. Being satisfied that what you see is all there is to something is the fastest path to not just ignorance, but regression. Two hundred years ago, people actually believed that flies and maggots were something that was generated directly by the process of decay, as in, they were an inherent part of biological matter, not a wholly external entity. It wasnāt until someone thought to let a piece of beef rot in a vacuum chamber that people figured out something else was going on. From there, germ theory (and literally billions of saved lives) was a stones throw away. Taking at face value that blacks are just automatically more athletic is bad for science (it teaches us nothing about genetics), bad for sports (it teaches us nothing about athletics), and bad for humanities (it teaches us nothing about our behavior). All claims demand scrutiny and all alternatives should be given equal consideration until such time as they fail to be plausible.
The races are not the same. Does anyone really think that we are all the same and we are essentially spray painted? How stupid is that.
No. But this is a straw man. The question isnāt are all races exactly the same or not. Itās specific to the question of athleticism. Does athleticism at large favor one race? Does the correlation of performance in all sports to the races that are over-represented in them prove that those groups are better genetically adapted to them?
A very good doctor friend of mine (who happens to black) pointed out to me that there are number of genetic conditions that afflict folks based on race. He has no qualms in agreeing to the differences.
He reminded me that blacks have a significantly higher incidence of sickle cell anemia than other populations. It afflicts 1 out of 500 blacks, but only 1 out of 36,000 hispanics. Most all research points to malaria as the source of the genetic alterations, and thus blacks in Africa were much more susceptible. That is, simplistically, the sickle cell itself helped ward off malaria. Thus those with the sickle cell trait were more apt to survive malaria. Malaria, over the history of man, is considered one of the largest killers. This trait continues in blacks today. It is not hard to imagine that other adaptive, survival of the fittest, traits would continue through today. The sickle cell trait is more prevalent in areas where malaria is an issue, itās just more focused on blacks.
This is a good point to bring up and it bears discussing. Yup, the sickle cell trait is one thatās found primarily in people with Sub-Saharan ancestry and yes, itās beneficial to fighting malaria. At no point, however, have I denied that this is how genetics work. I believe in science and statistics. I believe in the theory of evolution by natural selection. I believe that people adapted to the environments that they lived in over millions of years. No question. But this doesnāt help your case as much as you think it does. Malaria, after all, is limited to a narrow band of the world. Because sickle cells can resist malaria, but also can cause other circulatory problems, places with malaria favored sickle cells (because youāre more likely to be killed by the virus than the sickle cell), and places without it favored non-sickle cells. That said, traits like speed, agility, and strength are universally beneficial. Having European genetics in and of itself is no reason to prevent someone from developing these traits geographically/evolutionarily speaking.
Below is a link to an author he was aware of, and an explanation that is worth reading. Just as information.
Iām glad you brought up this book (Taboo by John Entine is where this information comes from). Itās a good read and it brings up a lot of information about genetics and race insofar as it relates to athletic performance. However, the research and statistics quoted in the book neither represent the final word on the genetic science, nor do they fully account for all factors and considerations. Let me bring up one specific claim mentioned in the book and article:
Blacks of exclusively West African ancestry make up 13 percent of the North American and Caribbean population but 40 percent of Major League baseball players, 70 percent of the NFL, and 85 percent of professional basketball.
The problem with this claim is that it isnāt actually true. The way Entine counts āexclusiveā West African ancestry is to assume that includes anyone who traces their roots back to the slave trade counts (this book was originally released around 2000, btw, and I donāt know if heās released a more updated version recently but the attribution on the cite appears to be from that edition), but more recent data suggests that our average Western Hemisphere dwelling black person has significant European ancestry (58% of US blacks have European ancestry equivalent to having at least one white great-grandparent), and itās unclear/unknown if all black slaves were exclusively from West African countries.
Itās also worth noting that although the books general claim is that West African ancestry gives a competitive edge in some sports and that thereās science that supports those claims (and Iām not saying there isnāt), it also suggests that other races have characteristics that benefit them in other sports/athletic endeavors as well. My bigger criticism with this book, however, is that it draws too broad of conclusions based on the data it cites. The closest thing that there is a scientific consensus to is that a specific gene common in West African ancestry (but far from exclusive to it) that allows people of that genetic grouping to dominate sprinting sports has been identified.
Entine overreaches, imho, including jumping sports as well, though. As I included in my links above, although black men do hold a majority of records in the long jump and hurdles, high jump records are largely held by Eastern/Northern Europeans. Although a number of black men possess exceptional vertical leaps (MJās was about 48" ), the highest recorded (although somewhat disputed) belongs to a French man of Persian ancestry by the name of Kadour Ziani, at 60" or 5ā. The next best (and better documented) belongs to a Cuban by the name Leonel Marshall Jr (the high jump record also belongs to a Cuban, and in either case, being Hispanic, Cubans trace their ethnic origins largely back to Europe).
There are other studies in other sports that are dominated by white people that try to draw biomechanical/genetic conclusions on why white guys rule there. One such study was by a team of Duke researchers about whites and swimming, and concluded that things such as whiteās average height advantage and having slightly more body fat compared to Sub-Saharan blacks (supposedly increasing buoyancy) are what make them better. But this, HEM, is why I brought up Michael Phelps to you. If the Duke research is true, and Phelps represents the pinnacle of European advantage in swimming, why, with his Tyshawn Taylor-esque proportions (the two are the same height and have the same wingspan) and clearly good āburstā speed, could Phelps not have become as good or better a basketball player as TT?
He also pointed me to that there have been multiple studies regarding athletes and muscle development, etc. His opinion was that discussion is constrained by the āeveryone is the same mentality.ā
I think itās worth repeating that the PC/āeveryone is the sameā argument is a straw man to what Iām discussing, and that I think we are having an open discussion about race/genetics and itās affects on athletic performance and itās one that Iāve enjoyed (even if thatās not true for the rest of everyone else. Sorry to hijack the thread, all, but this is the only time Iāve ever been able to have this discussion with, essentially, strangers). There probably arenāt too many places on the internet where a group of people with disparate political/social/economic opinions could have a discussion like this without it degenerating into a real flame war (even if some of our language seems inflammatory to the other).
Anyway, itās not that I think everyone is the same with only superficial differences, itās that I donāt think the notion that black people have the market cornered on elite athleticism (even if you limit it to burst speed, agility/change of direction, vertical jumping, distance jumping, throwing/shooting, body control) is well supported by the best genetic science. Even if it is true that West African/Sub-Saharan ancestry provides for some things, it certainly doesnāt appear to cover all bases. European ancestry appears to bring a lot to the table as well. As it relates to basketball specifically, European ancestry appears to me to actually be favored with vertical jumping, upper and lower body strength, and height (yes, even in American, white males are the tallest group on average).
If basketball were solely about who could move the fastest in quick, (mostly) linear bursts, a book like Taboo would be awfully damning. But like most professional sports, itās a lot more complicated of a game than that. Given that I donāt believe the research supports the idea that black athletes are either necessarily more prevalent per capita, nor that they possess a monopoly on genes that could/do give a competitive advantage in the sport (or in sports in general), Iām forced to look at other factors that may bias those numbers. I think thereās good support for my hypothesis. Part of the problem I have with your position, guys, is that the aforementioned āspeed geneā, although more common among West African blacks, is a mutation that also occurs in white people, so if itās true that more white people are spending just as much time and energy as black people on becoming the next Lebron, even if the gene is present at a lower rate, white people should still be churning out lots of athletes that can compete at the highest levels of basketball with black athletes. I think the reality is that they probably do, but for reasons of culture and socio/economics, the best white athletes tend to compete more in other sports. Now, I donāt expect to necessarily sway anyone with my arguments, but I donāt like having my case misrepresented by people trying to put words in my mouth either.
Lastly, I leave you with a bit of anecdotal evidence that I in no way claim represents the best data or is statistically significant, but it does reflect why I think white people really arenāt putting as much effort into being the best basketball players compared to blacks: Professionally, Iām a software developer (as I write this at 2am on a Sunday, Iām supporting server updates). In my career and in my personal life, Iāve encountered what I believe is an inordinate number of really tall people (4 men, all of them white and nerdy) who had never played a game of organized basketball (or any other sports really) in their lives. The heights of these men range from 6ā7" to 7ā0" (really 3 guys 6ā8"ish and one footer). Despite having been that tall since being freshmen or sophomores in HS, none of them was ever even asked to tryout for their basketball team. All of them are/were overweight to some degree. Again, that proves nothing as far as the white Lebron at IBM scenario, but I buy into the idea that those giant guys wouldnāt have been ignored by their HSās basketball coach had they been black.
Anyway, HEM and ddd, please feel free to respond if you have more to say on the matter, but Iāll leave my part in the discussion at that. Thanks all for bearing with us.
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@konkeyDong Actually, I am one poster who has not borne with you. Early on, I grew weary of all this racial bullhockey. Kudos to Statmachine for opening a new Mykhailiuk thread, hopefully with everyone gathering back on target.
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@REHawk-SWISH !!..
And from out in the the corner, hereās a solid Amen.
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@konkeyDong - I was tied up all day yesterday. I very much appreciate the discussion. You have the last word. @REHawk wants everyone (you and me, really) back on target. Sounds good.
