Post Banquet Conversation
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@drgnslayr I agree our team looked like one with the deepest bench at the beginning of the season, but somehow we couldn’t find enough players to step up starting January. It may be they were banged up or maybe Coach Self’s philosophy of not allowing players to learn on the job really hurt what he tries to accomplish. He needs to manage the personnel better and maximize all available resources. It’s probably not a comparable situation to professional soccer. Look at Ozil of Arsenal. Arsenal had many stars, but the manager didn’t rest his star player early during the season and got him burned out. Now Arsenal is struggling to make top four in the Premier League. Had he managed his players better, Arsenal might be strong toward the end of the season and challenging for the title in England. I think there is some parallel between Arsenal and KU. Both have great coaches and great players, both have very consistent performance and great regular seasons, but somehow both under perform at the end of the seasons.
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@HawksWin Developing a bench is a good thing, but when the talent gap between the starters and the bench is vast, it makes sense to play your best players the most minutes. This is not a point made regarding the prevention of injuries, but more to your other points about the benefits. I mean, you point to UConn, do you think Kevin Ollie was sitting Napier, Boatwright, & Daniels in lieu of bench players? Napier - 35.1 mpg. Boatwright - 32.4 mpg. Daniels - 29.0 mpg. Compare that to KU’s top minute garners - Wiggins - 32.8 mpg. Tharpe - 29.4 mpg. Selden - 29.2 mpg. Kentucky had 4 players (all freshman) average over 30 mpg. Wisconsin had 3 players average over 30 mpg and one average 29.8 mpg. Florida had two players average over 30 mpg, and their third leading player in terms of mpg averaged 27.9.
The point being what seems to work across all systems is playing your best players as much as possible. KU had 8 players average double digits in minutes played. So did all 4 Final 4 teams. Arizona had 7. Syracuse (who spent time this year ranked #1) had 8. Michigan St. - 8. Duke - 7. Virginia - 8 (barely, one player just above 10 mpg). The average seems to be playing 8 players. The only exceptions among top teams I found were Wichita St., Louisville, & Michigan all had 9 players average double digit mpg. Wichita St. can be explained by playing a cupcake schedule in which they were routinely blowing opponents out, which gives you the luxury of going down the bench one further. Louisville can be explained by their system, which both tires guys out more from their relentless play and also gets players in foul trouble quicker. Michigan seems to be the aberration.
So the argument really is that some want Self to change his system. I myself have been in favor of mixing in more traps, presses, zones, etc. But not as a complete system change, but as a change-up. I don’t think this requires a major philosophical shift in terms of minute distribution. In KU’s two most successful season’s under Self how many has he played? In '08 we had 8 players average double digit minutes, and the 8th was Roderick Stewart with 11.6 mpg, many of his minutes coming early in the season while filling in for Rush. And in '12 we had an iron man team, with only 7 averaging double digit minutes. Kevin Young averaged 11.4, while 4 starters averaged over 30.
Despite all other adjustments suggested, I think the problem we had this past season is staring us right in the face: Tharpe - 29.4 mpg. The argument can and has been made that Self should seriously cut those minutes next season and that we must have a capable point guard. Everything else discussed - distribution of minutes, style of play, OADs being ill-suited for success in Self’s system - is secondary, and really we cannot begin to diagnose if any of these other issues being discussed are genuine issues until the problem of point guard is addressed.
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@icthawkfan316 You got it. I don’t understand why the other issues are mentioned unless and until the pg problem is addressed. Fixing them won’t take care of the problem. Unless that is addressed, next year is going to be a big disappointment as well.
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Most every coach including Self always indicate that their goal is to have a rotation of 7-8 players and no more. It takes time and effort to have the players learn to play with each other and become aware of the little things that make the team work like a well oiled machine. If you start playing more than 7 or 8 players you introduce variables that decrease the efficiency of the team as a whole.
At the beginning of the season Coach Self indicated, half-jokingly, that this year he might have a bigger rotation in view of the talent available, but when the rubber hit the road, it went back to the rotation he has always used; not really a big surprise.
As I said, I have heard several big time coaches indicate the same approach, Coach K, Pitino, Izzo, Wright come to mind.
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@JayHawkFanToo Right. That was the point I was trying to make by illustrating how many other programs have their rotations at 8 players. That while I had never heard any other coaches talk about their player rotations (mainly because I don’t care to follow any other programs closely enough), that you could see the empirical proof that 7-8 is the standard.
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Agreed. Coach Self is doing what every other coach does.
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@icthawkfan316 Regarding playing 8 players, I agree and disagree. Agree is because what you illustrated while disagree is because what happened to Selden, Embiid, etc. When a player is hurt, the coach should rest him until he is recovered. While the hurt player is rested, it is time for the next bench player to come on board and learn the ropes. So we still have 8 players in the rotation. I think it is beneficial to the team, the hurt player, and the bench player to rotate. If the recovered player comes back and proves better than the bench player, the bench player goes back to the bench. We gain a healthy player, and an experienced bench player. What’s there to lose? I think without a developed bench, it leaves holes in March. And we leave our fate to chances that all the rotational players are healthy at the end of the season. What if Embiid were rested a month earlier and were available for March? Or Selden in December? I think we’d have much better chance of having Greene, White and Lucas developed as reliable backups for March. And we might go a little further than we did.
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Truthfully, I did not fully realize until Tournament Time (Big 12 and NCAA) that Tharpe’s mercurial inconsistencies would contibute so heavily to doom what was left of this squad after Embiid was forced to sit. Mason might have maxed out for his freshman potential; Frankamp barely touched his surface potential, delivering startling A/T stats in crunch time. The guy I thought all along needed perhaps an additional 3 min. per game average was Greene, who appeared to be a difficult study for the coaching staff. In my humble opinion, Greene’s potential is off the charts. Too many freshmen for Self to develop and maneuver this season…
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@REHawk Great thoughts about Greene. I think he’s got BIG potential, although we didnt see him dribble-drive as much as Wiggins. I think Brannen Greene(top30) and Wayne Selden(MickeyD), (& AW3( top50), if he stays) are foundation players for Bill Self, as are Mason(50ish), Frankamp(top30), Traylor, Lucas, Mickelson (top50). I mean thats a collection of 1- thru 5-position players, gathering experience & reps, irrespective of what the possible OADs do. If the OADs want to stay, “great, come join the family” (instead of staying in the guest bedroom x 9mos).
Give me the 2ADs (better) and the 3ADs (best) in Self’s system: Next season is going to be FUN!!
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@ralster Wigs was rarely if ever on a leash. By the end of Feb. Brannen KNEW that if he ventured far from his box he would submit to another choke collar, way down the pine. I think that Self had best let up on Greene early this next season, allow him to do what he does best: bring immediate Kevin Young-like energy onto the floor while keeping his body in constant motion. He will still race into some mindboggling turnovers, but the upside will compensate. If he and Self can mesh, I look to see Brannen cement his spot in the starting lineup by year 3. If he stays a 4th season, somewhere along the way he will be adorned with a national championship ring and become a first round draft choice. I am as certain of that as I am that Tharpe cannot start and lead the Jayhawks to March and April tournament titles. Naadir might do one hell of a strong job coming off the bench, but he can’t begin to compete against the likes of Napier or those cocky Kentucky twins.
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@REHawk Agreed. Wigs was given Rush-rules of mpg, including that rare gift of mistake-forgiveness. All others courttime lives and dies by the QuickHook. Even junior Tharpe sufferred the Hook early/often/and most unfortunately, in our final, floundering, headless game against the likes of Stanford: Tharpe had to sit-&-squirm next to Self, while Frankamp valiantly went down swinging. Guardplay and defense woes sunk us early.
But, on the bright side, getting a fiery-red “L” tattooed in your memory in the Round of 32 has a real nice way of motivating young cocky frosh. Now when Self talks, they know. Now they gained perspective and purpose.
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@jaybate 1.0 Great pot. I really hope that AW3 stays and finishes his career at KU. I envision a good 3rd year and a great senior year from him.
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@AsadZ Do you live in Colorado? Funny typo.
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I haven’t posted on here in a while, but it was interesting to see how much posters have learned from this past year at KU. This past year was experimental, playing with so much young talent was new to Bill Self and also for us, as fans. Our expectations were ENORMOUS for this team, and now they are so much more tempered. This is of course, speaking in generalities, this season is one data point, really. The freshman experiment could work, perhaps with different skills and talents, to produce a more favorable outcome. However, the NCAA tournament shouldn’t be the end all be all, great teams will always lose, any team can get hot at any point and play beyond their seed.
Talking about AW3 staying until the end of his career is exactly what KU needs though, more than an available scholarship to give to a freshman. KU had a HUGE recruiting class last year, Wigs/Selden/CF/FM/BG/Embiid. Holy cow. But I think the real value of this class will be Selden/CF/FM/BG, these guys who can give us a few years, even 4 years. Selden may go after his soph campaign, but he may not. The problem this year was we barely had any seniors who could play (Besides Tarik!). Heck, we barely had any juniors (Tharpe). If each class were to have two or so highly skilled but not NBA ready 4 year guys, I think KU is going to really take off, and also, be more fun to watch because there will be less boneheaded mistake. I will put it out there that I think this will be the worst season we have for the next 3 years (and it wasn’t even too shabby).
Before this season started I didn’t think Lucas would see ANY playing time because of our depth, but there was a need for him. The same will happen with AW3, he’ll be called on. Same thing for many of the bench players. Even Lucas is better off staying at KU. It’s coming together, and I don’t think we have to be as tempered with our expectations for the next few years.
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@Hawk8086 funny!!! Might be awhile before they get back w/you!!
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To all those wondering if Bill should play hurt players or not; I say if the long term implications are not dire do it. I know I would rather have seen Embiid play hurt in the tournament than not at all. If you think he would have hurt his draft stock look at the big guy from “The” OSU he was drafted #1 in spite of not being able to play his entire rookie year. He also hasn’t played more than a handful of games any one year.
Now I don’t want to see guys get crippled playing basketball, but if I can go to work the day after chopping my finger tip off they can maybe gut out a mild injury (a broken back is not a mild injury, I know). I work outdoors, but it’s not a contact sport - I understand it’s not a fair comparison. Tyshawn played a few days after minuscus surgery. Brandon Rush played the season after an ACL surgery. Wayne Selden, Josh Selby, Reed, etc. played all year with a bum wheel. Embiid’s parents wouldn’t let him play; I have no doubt he would’ve played (in pain) if he wouldn’t have been held out.
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@BucknellJayhawk3 Regarding AW3 staying or transferring, I know quite a few people (myself included) aren’t hopeful that he transfers because we want the scholarship for another freshman. I’d like to see him transfer for HIS sake. For the sake of his collegiate career. Look at next year - is he going to get significant playing time? Self recruited over him last year bringing in Wiggins, it appears he’s done it again bringing in Oubre. Greene got minutes ahead of him last year, so you’d have to assume that would be the case again. The point being, barring injury or something unforeseen, the circumstances just don’t look good for him playing rotation level minutes next year. To be a junior who was a top 50 level prospect coming out of high school, junior year should be the latest for being in a position to play those type of minutes. And with it not looking good for next year, should he just hold his breath and hope minutes open up his senior year? Should he really leave himself one year of eligibility to experience a significant role playing college hoops? Some guys don’t mind, because they are KU blue through & through, but most players are competitive and want to play. Andrew could take the lessons & teachings he’s garnered his first two years at KU, transfer somewhere else, sit out a year learning a system, and be ready to potentially star for another team with significant playing time available. I would not begrudge him that. In fact, I encourage it.
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@icthawkfan316 I totally get it, AW3 is in a tough spot right now. It is unfortunate, if he leaves I wouldn’t blame him either. Maybe he works his ass off again and beats BG for the starting spot his senior year? Maybe not. But for sure he isn’t guaranteed to star with Oubre around, so that is at least one year coming off the bench. I know part of the reason KU reloads every year isn’t solely because the bench guys got so much better from year to year, but it’s because they finally get their chance to get enough minutes to show it. This might be the case with AW3 as well. As a philosophy though, I think having these top 50 prospects sticking around for 4 years would be tremendous for the program, and I think with this frosh class of WS/BG/CF/FM maturing and sticking around for at least a little bit, we have some good years to come.
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@icthawkfan316 Couldn’t have said it better. I am a big AW3 fan and want the best for the guy. It would have been great to see what White could have done with regular playing time. I’ve heard a couple suggestions that he redshirt this next season.
I would just like to know why he would stay? What’s the rationale?
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@HighEliteMajor I would just like to know why he would stay? What’s the rationale?
He likes KU. He likes his teammates. He doesn’t want to start over. He likes his roommate. He has a girlfriend. He likes his classes. He likes his major. His mom and dad told him he couldn’t. He respects Coach Self to a fault.
And in the words of Naval Officer Candidate, Zach Mayo, “Don’t you do it! Don’t! You… I got nowhere else to go! I got nowhere else to g… I got nothin’ else.”
Thats just some of my maybes???
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@HighEliteMajor there are so many factors, and I don’t know what he prioritizes. Maybe he bought into the system and truly believes he’ll have his time to shine if he’s good enough, or maybe even as I type this he is contemplating leaving. If Oubre leaves after one year and we don’t get another 3, we could see him getting some great playing time in 2016, battling it out with Greene. If his overall goal is the NBA, he’ll have to be better than BG to get drafted. At the same time, maybe he does need to go somewhere else and get 30+ mpg for his sake. My perspective is just as a selfish fan who wants to see good athletes stick around. I will add, I see AW3 having a good go of his collegiate career, and won’t just transfer and get lost in the merry go round a la Anrio. What would his transfer options be like? Would he be able to land on a tournament team? What’s to guarantee he would start there and not be beat out for minutes or over recruited? I’m not sure what the transfer landscape is like. What if he also ended up being the star at Washington State University but never got to compete for a national championship? I really have no clue, I have no read on these talented athletes who are adored by tens of thousands of fans.
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@JRyman and @BucknellJayhawk3 - all very good points.
Connor Teahan could have played at a mid-major and chose to stay here.
With White, though, doesn’t he have a shot at some kind of pro career? Greece, Turkey, wherever?
You both are right … there is clearly more to this if he has made the decision to stay.
I’d like nothing more than for AW3 to stay, and have a breakout season.
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@BucknellJayhawk3 Right. White was a star in high school and was highly recruited. I would think it likely that he believes that he is good enough to earn significant playing time. Clearly, Self felt that way during pre-season. We look at the situation and see that he was not able to beat out Greene this year and now Oubre is coming. Something will have to change for him to earn playing time. As a competitor, he could likely believe that he can make that happen.
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@HighEliteMajor I cannot envision Andrew’s turning down a red shirt or a chance to transfer with the hopes of starting two years for another solid program. If he chooses neither, I don’t see him playing more than 5 or 6 minutes his jr. year…unless Oubre or Greene suffers lingering injury. If Perry occasionally is slotted at the small forward position, AW3’s playing time is definitely doomed for another season.
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@Hawk8086 LOL, Thanks for the assist
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Jhawks in Europe
http://www.rockchalktalk.com/2014/4/18/5628364/a-look-at-former-jayhawk-basketball-players-in-europe
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http://www.rockchalktalk.com/2014/4/18/5628364/a-look-at-former-jayhawk-basketball-players-in-europe
So glad to see Miles doing so well, never understood why he never caught on with a NBA team here.
Happy for all the Jayhawks overseas doing well.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks CB. In a comment under that article, someone asked about Tyrel Reed and Brady “Favorite Topic” Morningstar. Tyrel is studying at KU Med Center, and Brady is starting for a team in Finland.
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@ParisHawk someone told me Brady was done???
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Brady is playing in Finland. Maybe ? He was between teams last year!
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[Brady’s current stats…](http://basketball.eurobasket.com/player/Brady_Morningstar/Finland/Tapiolan_Honka/114177#Player Stats)
Isn’t the Internet great…
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@JayHawkFanToo These stats are useless. I don’t see any categories for crisply passing the ball back out to the top of the key, providing a fine post entry pass, minutes played without a meaningful statistic, or games played in front of a player with more upside?
How can one assess Brady Morningstar without those stats?
If these are all the stats that matter in basketball, how can one truly gauge the greatness that is, and was, Brady Morningstar?
Playing in Finland? And here I thought he was, upon graduation, on the cusp of an NBA career. Glue is really valuable in the League, don’t ya know …
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Take a chill pill and post again in the morning
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@JayHawkFanToo would that be red or blue, I forgot?!!!
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@HighEliteMajor I thought your B-Star post was awesome! I got a good laugh out of it!
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@icthawkfan316 … thought you might appreciate that.
And @Crimsonorblue22, that would be a blue pill. Definitely a blue pill there.
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“Depth is like insurance, you hope you never have to use it but it is comforting to know that if you ever need it…it is there.”
However… you can’t just think you have depth available when you need it if you don’t nurture it. We saw that in AW3. He couldn’t be counted on in this past March because he was as rusty as an old sea anchor.
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"I don’t understand the sudden disgust with OADS or with freshman getting so much playing time–as if this were something new. As far back as 1994-95, Raef LaFrentz averaged 23.6 mpg. Later averages were: Paul Pierce–25.4 mpg; Kirk Hinrich --21.3; Nick Collison–22.8; Drew Gooden–20.8; Brandon Rush–31.7; Mario Chalmers–26.3; Sherron Collins–22.3. There were other freshmen who had substantial playing time who I have forgotten or not mentioned.
Neither Coach Williams nor Coach Self refused to play freshmen because they were looking at a “big picture.” They were not playing because neither coach felt they contribute enough at that time to help win more games.
I don’t recall so many complaints about the way those freshmen were used. But now that a season in which some expected better results in the tournament came to a disappointing close–there are a number who jump on the bandwagon and essentially declare it to be a problem with the way Self is using freshmen. Just doesn’t make sense."
Right on the mark!
And how many of those guys you listed average the stats Wiggins did this year?
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@HighEliteMajor seriously think Brady will be more of a cheese guy than glue guy.
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“Playing in Finland? And here I thought he was, upon graduation, on the cusp of an NBA career. Glue is really valuable in the League, don’t ya know …”
The only thing that counts in the league is offense. If a guy can shoot, he’s got a chance of making a team.
Offense glosses over the entire league.
And there are players that can flat out score on anyone. “Lock down” in the league? More like “lock up” in the infirmary for mental evaluation… because that’s what people think of players who put more energy into their defense than their offense.
That is why I have a problem with Kentucky packed with Top 10 talent.
The focus on the game is away from fundamentals that made it great and are focused on brute forcing victories. Giving up on one side of the ball or on team play or fundamentals and just going with super star athletes who can score on anyone.
I think the best basketball today is at the junior high level. Guys aren’t good enough to dictate offense, so they are forced to play team ball and work hard on defense. And if someone does try to go Jordan then they get called out for being a ball hog. My kind of ball.
Once the boys start sprouting hair in patchy spots all over their bodies… the focus goes towards all out aggression. Then they want to look good (especially on the stat sheet) so they can also score with the ladies.
Brute force offense. Everyone clear the hell out and let “Big Boy Barrel Hughes” take it to the hole!
Yippee keye yeah…
And it all gets dictated by the all-mighty dollar. Fans just want to see high-flying dunks and parking lot treys. It’s like watching the Harlem Globetrotters but no one is wearing those fancy red, white and blue uniforms.
*We need to change our uniforms next year. We’ve had blue and we’ve had red, and there is always some white. Why can’t we do red, white and blue? Let’s call ourselves “America’s team” and do a version of Globetrotter uniforms. We already do the weave (that we stole from them). Gosh… wouldn’t that piss off Kentucky! “America’s team!”
That’s my rant for the day. Just came in from an evening in the garden. I get lots of thinking done out there… usually between the kale and eggplants.
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My father didn’t like showboats. The first time I remember him bringing this up was watching “Broadway Joe” playing in white football shoes when everyone else had black shoes.
I find myself between both camps these days. It is fun to see some celebrations, like a great ncaa bBall play.
and at the other extreme I hate to see a NFL defensive lineman go nuts after a sack-and sometimes it is the only sack he gets in the entire game.
When is the last time we saw a NFL offensive lineman beating his chest after he made a great block -even if he put the guy on his backside.
My daughter plays club bBall here in Houston. For the most part the kids playing in these tourneys -boys and girls play hard on both ends of the court-and we are in high school level now. But the parents can be the worst-so between that and TV games from NCAA and NBA no wonder they start going showboat all offense.
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@drgnslayr You do know I was kidding around there … back at kusports.com, more than few suggested that Brady had an NBA career ahead of him. Some of us questioned whether he had a college career behind him*. Anyway, if I recall correctly, one was our friend @jaybate, but my recollection may be a bit hazy …
*Again, kidding.
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I got that…
I was just venting my rant on several things and thought if I targeted it to you then at least one person will read it and maybe comment!
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We all knew you were kidding, so was I. Brady toiled in the D-League for a couple of years and at times he did very well and at other times not so well. Obviously he did not do the good things consistently to warrant a call to the NBA; Europe seems more suited to his game.
