No news is good news Embiid
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@JRyman Despite the delay, I don’t see how he stays. Why shouldn’t he take his time? The only reason he should hurry is for our team’s benefit…assuming that is a major influence on Turner’s decision…which would appear to be the case. But I think there is time for Joel to take all the time he needs and for Turner to make his decision.
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@HighEliteMajor heard that. I actually feel bad that he’s that stupid!
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@JayHawkFanToo I thought I read Turner was NOT a OAD. Anybody else read that? He seems like a really quality kid, strong family. I hope we get him.
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- Lucas is one that I was impressed with from a skill perspective, but obviously Self doesn’t feel that way yet. He was an emergency only guy. Maybe a reason for that.
@HighEliteMajor I can tell you exactly why Lucas doesn’t play more. His skills are solid, but he’s too much of a tweener. But he’s not a tweener like Ellis, who is really more of a 3 that can’t defend on the perimeter (and is only marginally better in the post), but more in the sense that, despite being 6’9" at 240ish lbs, he’s not strong enough to bully for post position, nor is he lean enough and nimble enough to out maneuver defenders. Similarly his lack of of ups and quickness means he’s not much of shot blocker and lacking lower body strength, he can’t keep from being backed down himself. That makes for a really narrow range of players he can match up with. If he really wants to find playing time, he needs to decide what kind of post player he wants to be and build his body towards that goal. I, for one, think he should go beefy. Even when he was lighter, he couldn’t really get up or do anything terribly athletic, so he may as well be a tank, right?
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@Hawk8086 I think Mari didn’t start playing bb til, maybe 10th grade???
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@konkeyDong got to say, Lucas seems to really be fundamentally sound, blocking out, rebounding, post moves. So is Hunter, quicker?
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@konkeyDong got to say, Lucas seems to really be fundamentally sound, blocking out, rebounding, post moves. So is Hunter, quicker?
@Crimsonorblue22 As a freshman, Mickelson was (I’m a bit of an Arkansas fan cause my father teaches there). He was also really really light. 6’10" and 210 lbs. Anderson had him bulk up though, and Hunter lost his step. It’s part of why he stopped blocking shots so well. Mickelson’s fundamentals are decent enough, but he is unlikely to match Lucas at footwork or face up play. It’s more, though, that Self is a defense first guy, and all Lucas really brings on the defensive end is good rebounding. When Mickelson signed, one of the things he wanted to work on was getting back to a more agile build. It remains to be seen if he’s succeeded at that, but if he did, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him jump Lucas in the rotation for that reason.
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@konkeyDong thanks, ready for preseason!
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@konkeyDong Good stuff … I vote beefy.
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Good information on Mickelson. Interesting that Anderson had him bulk up; he tends to like the leaner, quicker players that can play the 40 minutes of hell that he likes.
I am curious to see how he spent his red shirt season; with the proper training (and genes) a player can bulk up and still be explosive; hopefully he is both, we can use a good shot blocker. FWIW, KU has him listed at 6’-10" and 240 lbs.
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@JayHawkFanToo and @Crimsonorblue22 - I don’t know, I’ve never looked at Traylor and thought TRob. Ever. Even with the silly “baby TRob” stuff. Traylor’s shoulders are thin. TRob was a freak of nature.
And TRob was bad ass underneath, and his post moves were superb. He hit the boards as well as anyone I’ve ever seen here. Honestly, I don’t think Traylor’s even close to TRob.
Let’s look at TRob vs. Traylor – both players’ sophomore season:
Traylor: 549 minutes, 164 points, 139 rebounds
TRob: 482 minutes, 251 points, 212 rebounds
As you can see, the stats aren’t close.
TRob’s junior season was perhaps … perhaps … the best season a post player has had under Self at KU. Awesome. TRob averaged 11.9 rebounds a game, nearly 2 rebounds a game more than Nick Collison did in his senior season, and even more than Drew Gooden did in his incredible 2001-02 season.
Traylor certainly improved. But that improvement has simply made him an average back up. Definitely not a guy I want to rely upon as a 3rd post player. 4th guy? Sure. 3rd? No way.
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I was simply stating that Traylor reminds me of TRob as I believe they have a similar built, although TRob is a little bigger; obviously you don’t. More importantly, I was comparing how TRob’s s number doubled from season to season, much like Traylor’s have; I was comparing rate of improvement rather that actual production, makes sense?
Now, there is this bit from his KU bio…
"Finished the conference season with just 10 missed shots in 18 games (33-43, 76.7 FG Pct.)… Was a perfect 1.000 from the field in 13 games… First player off the bench most often (17x)… Ranked 14th in the Big 12 in blocks (0.8).
Don’t forget that He was not expected to be a scorer, Kind of makes you want to see more of him, doesn’t it?
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@JayHawkFanToo - Traylor is a fine 4th big. But that’s it in my opinion. And not trying to be argumentative, but TRob and Traylor don’t have near the same build. Actually, Ellis’ build is much closer to TRob’s.
But I understand your point. If Traylor’s stats do double, or even increase by 50%, that will be quite a feat. Self clearly felt more comfortable with Traylor vs. Ellis many times this season, which was unfortunately due in large part to Ellis’ defensive lapses.
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@JayHawkFanToo TRobb also had Withey inside to take the heat off of him in the post. Withey was a good passer and got rid of it as the double were coming not after they got there.
Traylor started playing HS ball late in his Junior year, the coach was trying to save him from a life on the streets, he has only played a few years and is as good as he is.
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@HighEliteMajor one thing they have alike is their motor!!! No way Perry can compare w/that.
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Nice… a thread comparing TRob and Bam Bam.
I agree with a lot of what Coach HEM stated… especially concerning size. TV never showed what a beast TRob was. If you’ve seen both of them live you see a huge difference in girth.
Where I may differ slightly from HEM is I’m more confident of Bam Bam’s future. Bam Bam also has one talent that even far exceeds TRob… foot speed! We witnessed several scoring moves from BB (Bam Bam) that was as impressive as they get from a 4. Those plays were impressive because of BBs foot speed.
Now… if BB can be coached properly between now and next fall, he can become a huge offensive player if he puts in serious reps this summer on moves to the rim. The guy can even shoot FTs… maybe he can shoot 3s? You just never know until a player puts in reps. We see what Kieff did.
On the defensive side of the ball, BB needs to stop fouling. Fouls have limited his minutes and aggressiveness all year. He mostly needs to improve his basketball IQ.
TRob still had a little better motor, and he definitely knew how to hustle rebounds far and away better than BB.
It isn’t fair to prejudge BBs future. He has very little basketball behind him, and has made crazy improvements in his game in just a short while. Might not be on the speed level improvement of Embiid… but Embiid had a life of other sports, like soccer, to help his footwork.
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@drgnslayr You make a good point about Traylor’s speed. I remember seeing one play (I think on a fast break) where I couldn’t see the number and I thought I was seeing Selden (because of the speed he was getting down court) when it was actually Traylor. As you say…great for a 4.
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I agree on Traylor’s speed.
Is there anyone who would feel comfortable with Traylor as our 3rd post player next season, meaning on a team that would compete to be playing for national title?
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@HighEliteMajor Mari surprised me this year w/improvement so I hopeful it will happen again! He backed up Perry and Tarik backed up Embiid, right? I thought he was our # 2, 4 guy?as far as next year, have to see who else comes in.
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@HighEliteMajor I would feel comfortable with Traylor being our 3rd post player next year. I mean, that’s what he was this past season (more mpg than Black for anyone who disagrees), and I believe it was you who wrote a “keep the faith” piece AFTER the Embiid injury heading into the tournament. So from that standpoint, how could we not be comfortable? If anything, I’m more uncomfortable with Ellis being our 1st or 2nd post player, and I’m a huge Ellis guy but he sure can be frustrating.
Looking at it from a different perspective, if he is the 3rd post player next year that means we lost Embiid and failed to bring in Turner. That would be discouraging. Even in that scenario, I think something that helps us be a little more comfortable is that we also have Lucas & Mickelson next year to hopefully be a good complement to Traylor. We don’t know for sure, but I’m hoping to see some decent progression from Lucas’s game, and I’m not sure what to expect from Mickelson, but I’m optimistic nonetheless. Basically, it’s not all on Traylor to carry the bench, much like it wasn’t this past year having Black around.
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Article about Embiid
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Considering that he has not played organized BBall for that long, Traylor has made amazing progress. If this Summer he improves as much as he did last Summer, I would feel very comfortable with Jamari getting increased playing time. I guess it all depends on whether Embiid stays (highly doubtful), Turner comes in (70% in Embiid leaves, 10% if Embiid stays), how quickly Alexander develops and how well Mickelson has adapted to the system and how well he plays.
I guess we will have to compare notes at the end of the season.
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@HighEliteMajor was thinking about you saying Perry and TRobs build being similar, or closer then Mari’s-I think Perry and TRob are listed as the same wt and ht, but I disagree w/builds being similar. Mari is an inch shorter and 20 lbs lighter than both. I try to watch TRob when ever I can, haven’t seen him take one jumper, but he’s doing well. Rebounding great-as expected, cleaning up around the goal is his main goal. Love the guy, who doesn’t!!? I also want to see Mari be able to make a good living! He’s developed a jumper and I think if he continues to improve he will have a chance. I still think, although he’s a little bit smaller, he reminds me so much of TRob. They both have that motor- you can’t coach and Self has an eye for finding those guys.
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@HighEliteMajor I would rather have him be the 4th big guy…which means that we would get Turner…clearly preferable. He would need to improve for me to be comfortable with him as the #3 big guy and for us to challenge for a NC. I think he can improve his offense (and defensive) skills enough to make me comfortable…and I don’t think it would take leaps and bounds. The biggest issue I see is that we don’t know, really, what Alexander is going to bring. If he is like most freshmen…there is a good chance he is going to struggle with foul trouble…meaning we may have to lean on the #3 guy…Traylor. That’s why I want Turner.
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@Hawk8086 I think Traylor and Cliff will be another edition of the loved “bruise brothers”!
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TRob’s height was exaggerated at KU. It was easy to tell he was not 6’-10" when he stood next to Withey and was 3 or 4 inches shorter and was closer in height to Kevin Young. At the pre-draft combine he was measured at 6’-7.75" without shoes and 6’-8.75" with shoes; however, his wing span was an amazing 7’-3.25".
By the way, KU lists Perry at 6’-8", 225 lbs, and Traylor at 6’-8" and 220 lbs.
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@JayHawkFanToo do we know Mari’s wingspan? Or perrys’s? Do you think ku’s roster has the height right?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I think you are right. As I think about it that 3 man rotation would be a little undersized…we would need for Lucas to take a pretty big step forward or Mickelson to be effective …both uncertainties at this point.
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@Crimsonorblue22 you kind of hit on the rationale of my point there, in part. With Traylor we have a very small front line. Further, we have the defensive liability of Ellis. We have none of our main three guys even listed over 6’8". Which means they’re all, at best, 6’8" in shoes.
Second, there would be concern about scoring. Traylor is not a gifted scorer. His improvement, though, was terrific. But it would be pretty hard to improve at the same rate. If he did improve to the same degree, heck, start him. But not expecting that improvement. My concern with scoring also lies greatly with Ellis – we saw him taken completely out of games either by a long/athletic defender, or by Self.
We would be smallish, with one being a subpar defender (Ellis) and one average (Traylor). Alexander is supposed to be a “plus” defender. And there isn’t likely reliable scoring. That creates uncerainty. But I think @icthawkfan316 is right. There would have to be a strong component of either Lucas of Mickelson, if for nothing else because of height.
Really, I do have some faith in Lucas. If I was a betting man … which I am from time to time … I would bet that if we lost Embiid, didn’t get Turner, didn’t land some astounding transfer … that in the last half of next season Lucas would be playing #3 post player minutes.
Also, @Crimsonorblue22, I had said that Ellis was much closer to TRob body wise, meaning as compared to Traylor. On a continuum, Ellis was much closer. But I don’t think his body is TRob’s, for sure. And you said Traylor reminds you of TRob – here’s my list 1) both black, 2) both tall, 3) both have tattoos (I couldn’t leave that out), 4) both have a good motor … now I’m struggling. Anything else? Maybe both althletic, but Embiid was athletic.
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Acute height doesn’t matter at all. No one plays ball with their head. Whether a player is 6’7" or 6’9" in shoes is meaningless. Consider NC State’s Beejay Anya, who is only 6’8" but boasts an unheard of 7’9" wingspan and 9’3" standing reach. He plays much more like a footer than an undersized power forward (and if he ever loses enough weight to keep himself in games, he’ll be nigh unstoppable).
Wingspan and standing reach are what determine your effective height in basketball because you use your hands to defend and shoot, not your forehead. In that sense, Ellis is pretty small for a 4 because he’s only got a 6’10" wingspan and, although I don’t have his standing reach, it’s a fair bet that he’s only in the 8’6" range. TRob, although a tiny bit under 6’9" in shoes, has a 7’3" wingspan and 8’10" standing reach, making him much more comparable to an average 6’10" player (consider he only gives up half an inch reach to Joakim Noah, for instance, who is 6’10.5" w/ bare feet). Coincidentally, Big Cliff is just under 6’9" in shoes and sports a 7’3" wingspan, so he’s going to play a lot bigger than either Traylor or Ellis. As for Traylor, his measurements aren’t available anywhere, but I’m guessing his reach and wingspan are a little better than Ellis’, although he might actually be shorter. Given that he’s unlikely to have a significant chance at being drafted, we may never know.
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KU (like most other major programs) traditionally adds an inch or two to every player, so the height measurements have to be taken with a grain of salt. The pre-draft measurements are interesting as we finally learn the players’ actual measurements. Having said that, I am not the only one that thinks that TRob and Jamari have similar builds; yes, TRob is a little bigger but their builds (not sizes) are similar. Lots of articles on the subjects
You cannot say he is not “built.”
Also, we must keep in mind that Jamari’s primary role in this years team was to play defense and not necessarily score; however, when KU dearly needed scoring and rebounding against Eastern Kentucky, he came up huge with 17 points (7 of 8 ), 14 rebounds (7 offensive), 2 assists, 1 block and only 2 fouls in 22 minutes. Traylor has the potential to be an impact player next season
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@JayHawkFanToo konkeyDong nice posts! Do you think verticals play into this too?
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@HighEliteMajor so, if we keep Embiid and have Cliff, who do you see starting at 4 & 5, and then who subs in for them? This is saying Self is NOT going to a 4 guard line-up. Traditional line-up. Just wondered what your thoughts were.
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If by “verticals” you mean jumping ability, Coach Self indicated a year ago that Traylor was more athletic tham TRob and he will only get better. If you mean standing reach, I have no idea waht Jamari’s is.
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@JayHawkFanToo the no step and max vertical jumps-on TRobs draft stats. I didn’t know coach said Jamari’s was better, be interesting to see.
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Jam Tray is 6-6, or I am a soprano.
His game is unrelated to Thomas Robinson’s game.
But Jam Tray proved this season that he is a good 20 minute per game back up at four and could be a good short game 5, if Self goes with 4 perimeter players.
Whether Jam Tray is a viable starter at the 4 depends entirely on what the 5 and the 3 can do. If Joel stayed and became a well-rounded scoring threat, then Traylor could be an ideal 4, if Oubre at 3 were Outrey, and not Notrey. If Oubre were Notrey, then Alex or Ellis.
The point is it all depends on who is at 5 and 3.
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@jaybate 1.0 I was never saying Mari would start, just off the bench at the 4 spot.
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@JayHawkFanToo thanks!
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I recognized that. But under the right circumstances he would start. It just depends. With a rim protector at 5 and a trey gun at 3 he would start for sure. With Selden and Oubre at 1 and 2, which is what Self probably should do, and Alexander and Ellis at 5 and 4, he could even start at his natural position at 3, which he has never done yet. He is going to be a very good player by next year. Wouldn’t be at all surprised if he starts at 4. When his athleticism converges with his skills, look out!
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@jaybate 1.0 you are surprising me. Mari just started looking at the goal this year, I thought you liked a 40% 3 shooter at the 3? I know some want Selden at point, but I think he’s to slow, and turn-over prone. Wish we knew what Embiid was going to do and how his back is doing?
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There is a better chance of Selden playing the 3 than PG. Selden’s natural position is SG and he is the best player on the team at that position; why would Coach Self play him at PG when there are several other players on the team better at that position?
