Joel's Gone
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@Crimsonorblue22 Lol - good memory!!
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It’s interesting that Embiid doesn’t just announce like Selden and remove the speculation. But, Embiid hasn’t done that. Short of making corrections, he isn’t exactly denying that he’s leaving either.
Help me if I’m wrong and this may sound silly, but Embiid and Wigs can talk to an agent? They just can’t sign? Or are they violating their amateur status by simply “talking” to an agent?
You ncaa rule freaks need to enlighten us ignorant folk.
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@HighEliteMajor Let me pose a hypothetical for you regarding Shepherd: instead of Shepherd for Embiid swap, would you rather trade Black for Shepherd and keep Embiid? So many people omit Black from the OAD discussion. Black wasn’t a presumed OAD; he was a guaranteed OAD - one and done at KU. His 3 years of Memphis mean nothing to anybody here. Nobody here fondly remembers any moments of Black’s first 3 years at Memphis. The talk about Black coming in was that he was going to be Perry Ellis’ best friend because he was the bruiser that would allow Ellis to do his work inside. As a senior he was presumed to be more seasoned; further along in his understanding of the college game. Then he couldn’t stay on the court for more than 3 minutes at a time before picking up two fouls. He later proved to be a valuable piece off the bench, but not exactly what we thought we were getting. If Embiid leaves, we have essentially played the last season with two OADs in our big man rotation. As a senior, Black had very little room to improve as he was closer to his ceiling coming in than Embiid or Shepherd.
So…keep Embiid with a chance he stays, and if he doesn’t you have some of the ancillary benefits of the “recruiting coup” as you put it and his lofty draft stock (feathers in Self’s cap to use in recruiting), or Black who had no chance to come back?
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@icthawkfan316 no way I trade black, I think he cared more about ks than the others.
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Black not only was muscle on the court, but a leader and a teacher off of it to his teammates.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Why do you think that? Maybe it’s true, maybe not. But why would that matter? HEM’s question about Shepherd/Embiid is based on the notion of trying to win national championships. Given that this year didn’t net us a national championship, why would you not trade Black for Shepherd? We know that bringing in Black didn’t win us one, but a guy like Shepherd with years to develop might.
The answer is sentiment. Most of us like Black, just like I would assume most of us like Embiid. In essence my question (mainly posed to @HighEliteMajor since he brought up that he would trade Shepherd for Embiid) is would you keep Embiid or would you keep Black, assuming we could land Shepherd? I’d take Embiid all day. Not because of any personal feelings, but because of two reasons: 1) a freshman Embiid was better & more valuable than a senior Black, and 2) there was always a chance from the outset we might get more than one year out of Embiid.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I would love to have 5 players for 4 yrs like Black. Imagine what you could do…WOW
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@globaljaybird OMG…it’s all your fault?..LOL. it’s all over every sports website known to man, my friend. I read it on CBS, and rushed over here, and found your post. You beat any number of us to it.
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@KUSTEVE Funny how ESPN hasn’t broken the Embiid mess. They are probably breaking their necks to verify.
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@truehawk93 To me guys with heart go a lot further than talent in college.
Look Arizona and Kentucky is the only team left with a phenom freshman. Kentucky is there due to multiple freshman, Arizona is there because he has guys with heart on the team to keep things going. Duke, Syracuse and KU are all at home with a bunch of talent.
Stanford played with heart and they over came a talented KU team.
When losing hurts so bad you drop to your knees like Black did against Stanford, it shows he had heart, a lot of those guys just went and shook hands and walked off the floor.
Maybe long term projects aren’t bad but there is no guarantee how long they stay or if they pan out, maybe if he stayed four years he would have the heart the size of Black.
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@icthawkfan316 With a heavy, heavy heart, I suppose I will be having to admit I was wrong…dead wrong about Embiid at some point. I became emotionally invested in the idea he would be back, and the longer the process takes, the more I think you’ll end up being right, and he leaves. I’m not sad over being wrong- I’m sad because I think it would be a really bad decision for Joel. I know I’m biased, but I think the kid needs another year to be a kid, and find his way on and off the court before he goes pro.
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@KUSTEVE Comepletely accidental find today.It was by force of habit to check boards’ posts this am, but believe it or not, that was not the first item on the honeydo list today…or any day for that (her) matter. LOL
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@HighEliteMajor Your philosophy that you’d rather have the “#50ish player” rather than a potential OAD is interesting. But if you are going to go after that player and exclude the OAD, you are starting to look at recruiting against Texas and Gonzaga rather than Kentucky and Arizona. You are also hoping for a 4 or 5 seed–or even lower–every year in the NCAA tournament, with the hope of making it to the top tier. Once you start dropping, the higher-rated prospects are going to start going elsewhere.
I was thrilled that Wiggins chose to come to KU. I think this season was much better than it would have been without him.
Also, many refer to the 2008 team as being special because it lacked an OAD. However, both Brandon Rush and Darrell Arthur were potential OADs. Is that the type player you don’t want to recruit anymore?
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@icthawkfan316 not impressed w/Shepard, I really feel JoJo didn’t want to chance his back playing in tourney, 'cause of the NBA. Not saying I blame him.
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Well, even though this rumor proved to be unfounded for the moment, it may well still come true. The question becomes where do we go from there? Myles Turner is the obvious answer, but Self has also been looking at Juco center Akolda Manyang
He, like Turner, is more limited offensively than Embiid, but he’s also a great rim protector and is pretty agile for his size. Again, I’m not making a direct comparison to Embiid, because he’s no where near that level, but he could be a serviceable piece should Embiid split and Turner miss.
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@konkeyDong that was impressive! Thanks!
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@HighElite Major
Now, if Embiid is gone, I would rather have the #50ish player with a year of experience. And a guy that would not dissuade an Alexander type player from coming.
One moment, Bill coaches to win every single game. He never once has coached for next year. They break the huddle 1, 2, 3, Big 12 Champs! or 1, 2, 3, National Champs1! It’s never 1, 2, 3, wait 'til next year! (I think that is an actual KSU chant) In trying to win every game Bill knew he had 5 spots to fill. Two players already in the program and go get the rest. This is a recipe for disaster, but Self churned out another Big 12 championship.
Bill did this on the shoulders of freshman greatness. Without Wiggins or Embiid (or OAD Black) KU looses at least 15 games. Figure 5 points less production out of the Wiggins spot and 4-5 points more scored by the opposition due to no Embiid.
Now to your question: No. I wouldn’t like 12 Andrew Whites/Naadir Tharpes on this team. I feel that putting the best talent on the floor is what wins National Championships. Wiggins and Embiid certainly give you a much better shot at winning with them than without.
The team in 2007-08 (yeah that team) won it all following two number one recruiting classes. So big talent is what big Bill wants. Talent overload with veteran leadership is the easy road to national titles.
As if an easy road to national titles exists.
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@dylans I’m gonna respectfully disagree with your statement about “putting the best talent on the floor is what wins National Championships.”
I believe that having experienced talent wins them.
It will be interesting to see in a couple of weeks who is holding up that trophy and if their starting lineup is heavy with FR/SO or JR/SR talent.
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@nuleafjhawk I said with veteran leadership (like Carmello’s 'Cuse team). And there really is no true recipe to National titles or Wooden’s book would be way more expensive.
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My question to anyone is this: If there had never been a requirement that a player attend college before entering the NBA, do you really think Wilt would have come to KU? What about Danny Manning? Would you recruit either of those two players with the current OAD rule in effect? Whether they had ever played in an NCAA championship or not, those two names would have had a positive effect on KU recruiting for years to come.
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@dylans That’s why I sucked in school. I only read what I want to see!
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@nuleafjhawk Wilt almost won an NCAA championship in his first year. Lew Alcindor and 3 other sophomores won a championship their first year. Carmelo Anthony led his team to the championship his first year. Kentucky’s first-year players won the championship in 2012. Michigan was one timeout away from a championship with first-year players.
For two consecutive years, it would have been hard to beat being a Butler fan. After a few years, you don’t hear so much about Butler anymore.
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@Wigs2 I think Danny would choose school. I always want to recruit these best. I guess I’m always hoping for another Danny, love the name on the jersey more than the NBA. His dad was a big influence on his decision too, not very many parents like that either. Wasn’t there a coach who couldn’t coach because he didn’t have his degree?
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Here is this year’s T. Black. Jayhawk slant says he added KU to the mix to transfer. http://www.owlsports.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=6578
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I always want to recruit these best.
@Crimsonorblue22 I’m getting to the point where I don’t want to recruit the best talent. Leave the top 10-15 alone and develop 16-100. The egocentric, me first mentality of the prima donna age of the freshman has me tiring of the game. More than anything, I get satisfaction out of witnessing (or participating) in the development of people. If I wanted to be a fan of basketball that has the ‘best of the best’ then I would just watch the crap product the NBA is selling. Let College basketball alone, but it is quickly becoming the NBA. Year after year, I enjoy the season less. I miss watching kids grow en lieu of the publicity ridden media frenzied appetite we have for find the “next” big thing.
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@Blown I agree w/you, as long as we consistently win! I’d like to get guys like Embiid that decide to stay too!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yep, agreed. I believe we can win at a high level with 3-4 year players. This year more than any, imho, has shown the importance of experience in the NCAA tourney also.
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@Blown Let’s assume Bill Self decides this summer to go after a #50 instead of #1-5 since he can’t have the premier player for more than one year. Word will get out that Self prefers the lower-rated player. In 2014 or 2015, the NBA decides to change the rule to make it two-and-done (or three-and-done). Self is going to have a difficult–if not impossible–task of convincing the best talent that it would be to the recruit’s advantage to come to Kansas. It won’t be long before #50 is a crown jewel for KU. Then we would be happy that we beat out a Mizzou for an NCAA tournament berth.
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@Wigs2 Every title at Kansas has been won by 2-4 year players.
P.S. This is KANSAS. We will ALWAYS have our foot in the door on 90% of high level recruits.
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@truehawk93 In proper grammar, the past tense would be you are a TWAT, right?
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@Blown As I stated before, both Rush and Arthur were potential–and maybe presumed–OADs. I believe Manning would have been if the rule had been effect at that time. Chamberlain certainly would have been. If you start recruiting lesser talent, there will be no end to the dropoff. The KANSAS name doesn’t mean nearly as much to these kids as you think it does. UCLA was for years the premier destination for a college basketball player. Do you still think they want to go there?
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Remember, my question on Shepherd vs. Embiid is in hindsight. Embiid was not a presumed OAD. So now, as we sit here today, would you have rather had Embiid for this past season only, no national title, or Shepherd for this past season and into the future? I just think that it’s an interesting thought process. It lets you know where you stand on OADs.
My line on judging is if we win the national title. Otherwise, the better decision is nearly always long term.
With Wiggins, for example now, are we better off having had him. Or, given that we didn’t win that national title, got bounced in the 2nd round (or 3rd round … whatever the hell it is … first weekend), would KU have been better off playing Greene and/or White all season at the 3? Thus having one or both more ready and prepared next season? Or did having Wiggins bring something intrinsic? I’ve touched on this before a few times.
I do think we win the Big 12 without Wiggins, if Embiid was healthy all season. But he wasn’t. So we might have lost the Big 12. That doesn’t cause me to lose sleep mainly because of those other 9 shiny rings.
But this is the presumed OAD question. At what cost vs. the what benefit.
Now, we had Wiggins, and we have nothing. And we head into next season with the three spot either occupied by a guy who didn’t get a ton of experience (Greene) or a freshman who will need to learn (again) – Oubre.
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@JRyman - Excellent post
Imagine how Black felt answering questions all week about how he was going to make up for the loss of Joel. Black played like an absolute champion and wore his heart on his sleeve during the Stanford game. He tried as hard as he could to take us to Memphis and when we couldn’t hang on, he was devastated. I could barely watch the video of him being interviewed after.
I am excited for the future because we have guys that are already showing Heart. Frankamp is one of those; Selden has shown his heart and passion; I believe that even Greene shows the fire and the heart to want to take this team to new heights. I believe Tharpe tries is absolute hardest, he looked heart broken after the loss as well. I hope Perry finds his or if he already has it, I want him to show it.
I obviously wish Wiggins and Embiid would stay one more year but I wish Black could as well.
Heart is why T-Rob will always be one of my favorite players.
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@dtdjayhawk Ok, I was with you until you said “Tharpe tries his absolute hardest …” I have never seen a player under Self that I questioned his heart, desire, and effort more than Tharpe. Is my conclusion wrong there?
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@wrwlumpy 2010-11: Red-shirted season due to a back ?
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@Wigs2 I’m not going to say your theory is wrong, because we have no way to prove it. But I think you are making a big leap and projecting “what would happen.” My sentiments are solely based on what IS happening. You are stuck on the top 15 players being full of Glory because that is what the media has sold you.
Also–you said “In 2014 or 2015, the NBA decides to change the rule to make it two-and-done (or three-and-done). Self is going to have a difficult–if not impossible–task of convincing the best talent that it would be to the recruit’s advantage to come to Kansas.”
If the NBA does change the rule, there is going to be a natural decline in Self bringing in OAD for the simple fact that their current players would be staying 2-3 years as you suggested.
Do you think we get Wiggs if McLemore has to stay 2-3 years? Do we get Oubre if Wiggs has to stay 2-3 years? The answer is no. So regardless, we will see a decrease in OAD’s signed at schools. Kentucky isn’t going to keep reeling in the #1 class if the incoming freshmen KNOW they have little to no shot at seeing the court until they are in year two or three.
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@HighEliteMajor Unless you know what Shepherd would have done in the KU system, it’s impossible to say. If Shepherd had come to KU and progressed into one of the top 3 draft choices, he probably would have left as well. Then would you have been wishing for Embiid? Unless you know how Shepherd would have done and whether he would have opted to stay at KU after a sensational season, your question doesn’t have an answer.
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@Wigs2 Wilt was a freak of nature. There will never be another Wilt.
Alcindor’s team - sophomore’s. Sophomore’s who had already practiced with the team for one full year before their sophomore seasons. Close to 50 years ago. When if you had a Lew Alcindor - it didn’t make any difference who else you had on your team, you were going to win.
I’ll take very good Jr’s and Sr’s any day over uber talented freshmen.
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@Wigs2 Well what’s the point then. I don’t know if the world’s going to end tomorrow.
Ok, assume we got Shepherd and he progressed just like our other 50ish post guys, Markieff and TRob, and left after three years vs. Embiid’s one year.
You have to make a few assumptions in recruiting in general terms. If a guy is saying he’s likely and OAD, you have to recruit assuming that and vice versa.
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@Wigs2 what past KU players do you think played for the jersey? 1988 team, Sherron, Cole, TRob, EJ, TT, Kevin, the ks kids, …and???
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@HighEliteMajor I just think that there are so many variables that your question can’t be answered. Would Shepherd have enjoyed his freshman year at KU? Would he have liked Self and/or his teammates? Would he have decided to transfer after his freshman year because he didn’t think he would ever get enough playing time? Would he have liked Lawrence? What would he have thought about being in this area during this brutal winter? Maybe everything would have worked out perfectly but you never know.
As I said earlier, I like the 4-year player too. I liked the way it was 50-60 years ago. It’s hard to get attached to a player when he stays for only one year. I just think as the rule is now, it is just impractical to expect a top recruit to stay for more than one year. But you still have to go after them or your whole program will decline.
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@Wigs2 agree, probably if Shepard came here, I’d like to think he would be a lot better than he is now.
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@Wigs2 would the world end tomorrow? Again what’s the point if you “what if” it to death?
It’s a general concept where you make general assumptions to arrive at a philosophy and approach. It’s like recruiting a point guard. If you want a tall, athletic guy that is good on defense. You recruit guys that mold and assume that it will translate to what you want in college. They might flame out.
And no one’s saying 50-60 years ago. I’m talking recruiting guys that you would assume would be 3-4 year guys.
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@wissoxfan83 I’m not going to believe ANYTHING until it comes directly from Joel and Coach.
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HEM, I think a coach either has to assume that all recruits are going to be 3-4 year guys or that they are going to all be OADs. If Wiggins would have had a disappointing season and he had fallen considerably in the draft, he would have been playing next year at Kansas. Brandon Rush was considered a OAD by many people. It didn’t work out. He would certainly have been done after his sophomore season if he had not been injured during NBA draft tryouts. Contrary to what many seem to think, Rush didn’t come back because of the name across the front of his jersey. I think the coach just drafts the player who he feels will best fit into his system and lets the chips fall where they may. Otherwise, he will “what if?” himself to death.
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The last time KU won a national championship was 2008. The three best players on that team were Mario Chalmers (12th ranked recruit), Brandon Rush (13th ranked recruit), and Darrell Arthur (16th ranked recruit). All three of those players went on to play in the NBA. Russell Robinson was the 27th ranked recruit and Sasha Kaun was 34th.
The closest KU came to winning before that was 2002 and 2003. Both of those teams had highly rated recruits with NBA talent (Hinrich, Gooden, Collison). The 2002 team lost to a Maryland team with Steve Blake, Chris Wilcox, and Juan Dixon. The 2003 team lost to a team with a one-and-done player, Carmelo Anthony. The 1997 team that was good enough to win the national championship had Paul Pierce. They lost to an Arizona team that had Mike Bibby and Jason Terry. That Arizona team went on to win the national championship.
This season, the biggest problem for KU was their junior point guard. Tharpe was the 92nd ranked recruit when he committed to Kansas. Had Embiid been healthy against Stanford I think Kansas would have won. But he wasn’t and they lost. Injuries happen.
That doesn’t mean KU should stop recruiting the best players possible. Wiggins wasn’t the problem this season, neither was Embiid. In fact, if it weren’t for those 2 players I’m not sure KU would have won a 10th straight Big 12 title. With more consistent point guard play and a healthy Embiid, Kansas would probably still be in the tournament, maybe even the favorite. Keep recruiting 1-2 year players and hope they stay a few years because Kansas isn’t going to win national championships with just 50th ranked recruits. Sure, you can have a few of those players, Frankamp and Greene were ranked 47th and 48th, Darnell Jackson was 55th on the 2008 team, but you need really good players to win national championships.
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@dtdjayhawk Ok, I was with you until you said “Tharpe tries his absolute hardest …” I have never seen a player under Self that I questioned his heart, desire, and effort more than Tharpe. Is my conclusion wrong there?
Not sure you are completely wrong, but he has shown his heart, when he gets benched, he doesn’t sit an cry to the nearest reporter, he doesn’t make excuses for his play. He shows great character by going back out there time and time again trying.
I do not believe he goes out there looking to fail or to just go through the motions. Therefore by reasonable deductions he is trying.
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I’ve been operating under the assumption that Embiid would be gone since mid January. He progressed much faster than anyone anticipated.
I doubt that Coach Self really regrets having Embiid here, and I certainly don’t think he would have preferred a lower ranked prospect than Embiid. Embiid provided KU, in his one year, with a real chance to go the distance. Shepherd wouldn’t have provided that this year, and may not ever turn out to be that type of “put you over the top” player. Would KU be better off to have a player that probably will never be as good as Perry Ellis is now?
@KirkIsMyHinrich makes a great point about KU, but I would take it even a step further. When is the last time KU landed a highly ranked PG that actually stayed at PG in college?
Give up? Try the Class of 2006 - Sherron Collins. Since then, the only guys to stay at the point were Tyshawn Taylor (77) and Naadir Tharpe (92). Tyrel Reed, Josh Selby and Elijah Johnson all moved off the ball.
You know who this team really may have missed, without even realizing it? Anrio Adams. Wouldn’t it have been nice to be able to slip a combo guard into the rotation alongside Selden and Wiggins? But that’s a moot point.
Self needs to find himself a true PG that is legitimately a high ranked player. Not a developmental case. A legit, can play from day one PG. As we have seen, a lower ranked player can become a big time player like Tyshawn, or never quite develop to our hopes like Naadir.
That said, Tharpe still has one more year, but as a player that is getting towards the end of his career, I have trouble seeing him becoming a significantly different player at this point.
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@wissoxfan83 Man, all of this is speculation and theory. All of it. If the NBA does extend the minimum age and require 2 years of college, then how would it affect KU getting the top players? The OAD type players wouldn’t exist anymore. They would be two and done, or three and done. Its a moot point if the age limit is extended. I mean would we have been a better team with Ben Mac this year instead of Wigs? I’m leaning yes just based on experience. Both players were two of KU’s best freshmen in this last decade. Both have different strengths and weaknesses. Ben would have had more experience to lead this year, which could have lead us further in the tournaments. (Speculation) But, to think that KU will lose out on one and done type players, I don’t think that’s accurate. I think the recruiting and landing of those players will just cycle differently.
