Jayhawk Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (JOCD)
-
#why so large?
-
-
Arizona, 1997. The worst because it was the best KU team ever.
-
VCU, 2011. Silver platter.
-
Syracuse, 2003. Free throws.
-
Maryland, 2002. Winner of semi easily better than Indiana.
-
UNI, 2010. Just embarrassing.
-
Michigan, 2013. Because we were a veteran team, presumably with all the pieces.
-
Kentucky, 2012. Mitigated because of our incredible, unexpected run.
-
UCLA, 2007. A bit forgotten because we won the tourney the next season.
-
Virginia, 1995. Thought Kemper was an advantage.
-
Rhode Island, 1998. Arrogant Jim Harrick made it worse.
-
-
Let’s not forget the Battle of New Orleans and 1 point loss Wichita State. Luckily the last time we played them we beat hem by 49 points.
-
Let’s not lose track that all these loses hurt, and many if not most are considered upsets, because KU is such a good program. If KU was middle-of- the-road program these loses would not be considered upsets, would not sting as much, we would be glad we made it to the tournament in the first place and would not be talking about them at at all; in fact, this forum would not even exist. Every other elite program has a comparable or much larger list. If you think our loses are bad, they don’t look so bad when compared to UK and its band of superstars losing to Bobby Mo in the opening game of the NIT; now, that is embarrassing.
Let’s be happy that we have such good program where every loss is an upset and stings…after all, how many other programs can say the same thing?
-
The wins that stay with me:
1988 vs OU title game 2008 vs Memphis title game The last Border War win! 2008 UNC tournament game The Nick Collison vs Texas game Beating OK st this year ISU EJ goes off for OT win
-
@JRyman Attaboy! There are plenty of unforgettable wins. For me, the UNC semifinal game in 2008 stands out. Not only was there so much hype because of the Ol’ Roy thing, it’s hard to overstate how intimidating that team was. Fortunately we played some of the finest basketball I’ve ever seen played, and took the game in about 15 minutes.
Some of my other favorite wins that I was fortunate enough to catch in Allen Fieldhouse: 1994 vs OK State, when Woodberry hit the three at the buzzer. 1995 vs UCLA, when we came back from like 15 down to win, featuring Jacque Vaughn’s spin move that is in virtually every KU highlight reel. New Year’s Day 2005, when we won against GA Tech in overtime.
The Durant game, where he was scoring at will before getting hurt…when he was lying on the floor, the entire place was dead silent. It was really something. We all knew we were seeing a truly special player, and the thought of him injured was sickening. Luckily he came back in, and KU got back into the game and pulled it out! To this day, I’ve never seen a more captivating player in person. Embiid was close, but the presence of Durant on the court was something I’ll never forget.
Another game that we lost, but it never really felt that way, was Texas in 2011. That was the game where T-Rob’s mother died the night before, and the boys were up all night with him. We saw the true meaning of FOE that day, and they played excellent to begin the game, but ultimately just ran out of gas. That’s one of many reasons that I’m still sad about VCU - that team flat out deserved a championship. Tough players, great teammates, and just pure winners all around.
Overall, I’ll take a loss before I’ll take no game at all. Something about gameday gets me going like few other things can. Great thread; plenty of wonderful memories from a lifetime of watching KU hoops!
-
@Virgil_Caine OMgosh! The Texas game after TRob’s mom passed, is the worst game for me! Wasn’t thinking along those lines. The pics of him and his sister, how KU and NCAA worked to help them, was a week I won’t forget! Would love to read a story about him and his sister. I was worried about him after reading about him driving over 100 mph and having a few accidents. FOE!
-
Yeah, I suppose it was pretty morbid to list that one as a “favorite,” since obviously we all wish that had never happened to that young man. I just found it to be inspiring the way all the players, fans, and even the Texas personnel responded to the horrible news. I sure wanted our guys to come away with that win, but it was also refreshing that there was a collective shoulder shrug when we lost…that day was a reminder that even though we place great importance on winning and losing, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t truly matter all that much.
-
@Virgil_Caine you are exactly right!
-
@nuleafjhawk - Don’t laugh but my Dad played for the Topeka Y in the 30’s. He could still dunk when in his early 40’s-one handed. He was only 5’10" but was a pole vaulter/long jumper in college with extremely strong legs.
-
This post is deleted!
-
@globaljaybird Wow! I would never laugh at that - that’s way cool ! And to be able to dunk in his 40’s is one heck of an accomplishment - then throw in the 5’10" thing - your pops must have been quite the athlete! Thanks for sharing.
-
@nuleafjhawk-Thanks leaf, he really was. In the mid 1950’s he could still take the grab irons on a caboose & hold his body straight horizontal like a gymnast. I’ve posted before that he ran track in the 25 & 26 KU Relays & was also a 3 sport letterman at Baker & Pitt. In those days an enlarged heart was thought to be an “athlete’s” heart, but he passed in 1959 at the age of 50. Decades later medicine learned that an enlarged heart is pretty much a death sentence without a transplant. But thanks leaf, he really was the guy that created my fervor & fire for KUBB. I listened to the 52 Championship & the 57 loss both with him on our upright Hoffman shortwave. Before my time, Mom said they used to pick up Tokyo Rose on it during WW 11.
-
Man, if you were listening in 52 you must have a gazillion ku stories through the years.
-
@JayhawkRock78-So many seasons have come & gone that far too many have become faded with age. That’s why I try to quickly let go of the bad & savor all the good things possible. You just never know when it’s your last tip.
-
@globaljaybird So true, My last KU event with my dad was Late Night this fall. At least we got that one in.
-
@JayhawkRock78-Cool stuff Rock, always savor the moment. Not meaning to sound corny or hokie, but I once read an enlightening (book) perspective about not holding on to the past & hate. Is one of many favs & is the George Foreman story titled “God In My Corner.” It lays out the reasoning in plain & simple English. It is sitting right beside the Dennis Byrd book “Rise And Walk.” I also once listened to KSU Bill Snyder speak & give testimony about his daughter being paralyzed in an auto accident, & how virtually by miracle she regained the ability to walk. Some things can be logically explained while many others just can’t.
-
I’ve been out of the loop for a few days. Interesting discussion here. I was most crushed by the Syracuse game in 03. Arizona is a close 2nd. All of the rest were just embarrassing more than crushing those teams were mostly flawed teams anyways. I’m going to add Duke in '86 to the list mainly because we just got screwed by the refs and then Archie went down and a team in the finals whom we had beaten twice
What about most forgettable wins? Any low major. I remember one year with a one seed beating Holy Cross in very unconvincing fashion, but I think that team went to the FF. Beating Davidson in '08 was only made memorable by the fact we won it all. I enjoyed not one aspect of that nail biter except watching Curry’s final shot miss.
-
Actually we doubled Curry and forced him to pass it to another player who missed the shot. Self was squating on the floor, and when the shot missed at the buzzer, nearly dropped his Knees to the floor and he leaned over and slammed his hand on the floor in relief.
-
@wissoxfan83 Ah, yes, Holy Cross. I believe Hinich hurt his ankle in that one, which had us all pretty nervous.
The reason Curry’s shot didn’t go in is because a brilliant defensive switch forced the ball out of his hands, so their other guard had to hoist it. Rush was on Curry, then lost his footing and fell, so Chalmers immediately switched onto him, luring him back towards Rush near the top of the key, so with both of them near him, Curry had to pass off. Can’t remember the other guard’s name, but he heaved it off the backboard. I have no doubt in my mind that Curry would have nailed a 3 without that switch.
-
@Virgil_Caine Gotta hand it to you Virg, you 've got the details down on that play.
-
@Virgil_Caine Oh thanks! I forgot that he didn’t shoot it. Glad he didnt, he’d probably have made it.
-
Hey, while you’re pondering the worst losses, think Francamp for a moment…overlooked in the loss to Stanford was CF’s shining moments in that game. The steal, the perfect pass that ate Stan’s defense up, those beautiful, clutch 3 pointers from a mile away…OMG. Let Naadir go play doctor with his little nurse, and get that Mister Francamp into the lineup every minute you can, Bill.
-
@KUSTEVE jethro, Frankamp did indeed have some great moments in the final game. I believe he will have many more. But, he did have some chances and fell short most of the time. As far as Tharpe goes, I’m not promoting him, but he had a great game against OU, that one stands out the most. My point is, one game does not assure coach, Conner is the guy. He may be, Mason may be. I’m just hoping they all make huge improvements over the summer.
-
@Virgil_Caine referring to TRobs loss, I remember how gracious Frank Martin was to our guys, even donating to the Jayla fund and encouraging others to do the same. I don’t always agree w/Frank, but I miss him in the conference. He always respected coach Self!
-
@JRyman Yea I don’t know if I’ll ever forget that 97 Arizona loss. That one really stung. I also think the VCU loss left a mark too.
-
Fran Martin off the court is a really classy individual who cares deeply about his players. His on court persona is not representative of the real Frank Martin.
-
What’s helped me get over losses is simply see the game from a coach’s perspective. The quote from Darnell Jackson after UCLA knocked us out in the 2007 Elite8, sums it up for almost EVERY Tournament loss: “We didnt do/got away from what brought us here”.
If we dont execute our season-long and nation-leading FG% defense, we are vulnerable. We just became any-ole-tourney-team-with-a-few-athletes if we dont execute decently. That defense, coupled with high%plays offensively can be dominating… especially against inferior opponents, but it also should keep you in a game vs a dangerous opponent.
When you dont do these two things, you just gave away the ‘edge’ that Self gives us.
The game tape doesnt lie:
Bucknell – Seniors underperformed. Didnt execute Self’s system, because they didnt buy into it fully. Langford admitted it 4yrs later. Bad chemistry between players and coach.
Bradley – Lots of frosh. Who are prone to more outings with inconsistent execution of the system. Heck, they may not even fully know the system. Really cant expect that '06 team go too far in the Tourney…
UCLA – Didnt execute the gameplan. Played D, got lots of strips/steals, but also GOT stripped and turned it over. If you recall, it was like KU vs UNC, except we didnt finish the bunnies/layups, mainly Rush+Chalmers. They learned. They played within the system the next season.
(Davidson/Memphis 2008…) – NOT losses, but very well could have been. I put these wins here because they very easily could have been losses (the “Madness”…) --> this is to remind ALL of us that off-nights can happen to very good, sound teams (see AZ, FL, MichSt, Syracuse, WSU in the 2014 Tourney). That would apply to 97 KU also. Would Bill Self still be here if he hadnt won it all in 2008?
MichState – Frosh heavy. Cole + Sherron, 2-man team. Twins get manhandled, and realized they were “soft”. They changed that to their immense credit, and to Bill Self. We destroyed lesser opponents, as a dominant bigman + a dominant guard can get you far…but against a solid experienced and bruiser-type lineup like MichState, our weaknesses got exposed.
UNI – Honestly, we didnt play D. Sherron did have a pulled groin, so was 80%. I’d buy that, as we all saw he didnt look like the same Sherron Memphis and UNC faced, nor the one Wille Warren got blasted into anonymity by. That UNI-Sherron went 0-6 from trey (and he was a trusted senior shooter, with a pure trey gun since Day 1 as a frosh), and also he got stopped by 6’6 tub-o-lard O’Rear. Man, people quit the angst about Ali Farokmanesh, a 6ft guard with no hops, and their “happy giant” Egelseder 7footer who hit 2 threes. Ask yourselves 1 question: Where is Ben Jacobsen now?? …yep, back to anonymity in the brutal MVC (chuckles…). I dont see UNI’s fairy-tale upset of a royalty program having done ANYTHING for their recruiting or national stature. I see the problem being Tyshawn, Sherron (perhaps excused), and Tyrel Reed NOT PLAYING DEFENSE. Come on, people, same old analytical fact comes up to bite us in the tail, and yet there is all this angst. Seriously, if you cannot beat a melting-pot hodge-podge team like UNI, you deserve to sit at home. E-s-p-e-c-i-a-l-l-y if you got a royalty program name on your jersey. Again: If you cannot do what made you 30+ great all season, in a game that counts, then you werent great enough to deserve to advance. Call this the Iron Law of the Tournament. Survive your off-night and advance.
VCU – It seems that Shaka Smart did a fair amount with 1 set of recruits (Skeen, Rodriguez), but chose to stay, avoid high-profile pressure…and then has faded also: Got blown out of the Tourney in 2013 with a 25pt loss. So, what did that fairy-tale upset of KU do for Shaka? Did it help his recruiting? Did it enhance VCU’s national stature? Umm…Im starting to think UNI and VCU are just George Mason-type flash in the pans. How about FloridaGulfCoast? Pull a couple of upsets, then disappear as soon as the arena lights are turned off. Oh, and in the meantime, Billy Self is busy recruiting, crafting Conf champs 8, 9, 10…and putting together a NC/Final Four run the year after VCU. The lesson of VCU is if our guys dont respect the opponent, or dont execute our D, and dont go for the high% looks, then we arent (in that game) who we “were” all season 30+wins long. Yes, KU was the overall 1seed…BUT, wasnt it this same 2011 team that “looked past” the Tennessee walk-ons and got embarrassed? So maybe that is the reason we didnt execute our ‘vaunted’ defense against VCU. You cannot say they were more athletic than us. Story of the game was: lack of D, Reed 1-for-7 trey (trusted senior shooter, but with bum foot), and Markieff’s 6 t.o.'s. Marcus + Tyshawn showed up to play, but 2man teams dont get very far. Having an uberfrosh No.1 rated PG (Selby) at 80% with a bum foot also didnt help our depth or explosiveness either. It hurt because we saw weak Duke get an easy path NC, and I know our guys would get “up” for a name opponent. We would have destroyed Duke, and trash-talked them while doing it. I’m not sold on the “bad hubris” angle. Selby was snake-bit 3 ways (ncaa + 2 separate injuries), and this group of athletes tended to look past inferior opponents (Tennessee). Trash-talk all you want…if you can back it up. That is nothing new, ask Michael Jordan. I dont mind that swagger. Notice Self even said he didnt mind the trash talk “as long as we back it up on the court”. We didnt execute our defense…& shot a bad%…AND turned it over = we lose. Dont look at the overall 1seed…look at the game tape of VCU, if you can stomach it. Sooo, so, so easy to see why we lost to an inferior, flash-in-pan team like VCU. Get over it.
Kentucky – Our 2012 team had heart. Also a habit of starting off cold, and getting in big holes. They almost dropped the final Mizzoo game in AFH, but pulled it out, making it one of the best wins in KU history. Tyshawn + Elijah, god love them both (& I sorely miss both still), took us all the way. Starting 5 good as anybody, but no bench. What could have been if Yr2 Selby +/- Markieff were available? KYo getting his broken hand in his altercation with the 6’9 white kid from TX who then never played, and transferred due to “concussion”…surely didnt help our depth development. Nor did Selby, foolishly deciding to go pro? So that run ended, 3 missed dunks and 2 bricked FTs short. But they gave us wildly spectacular memories over OhioState, UNC, and Purdue.
Michigan – A painful TEAM-FAIL lesson in NOT executing down the stretch. Oh, and everybody had a hand in that downfall…from EJ turning it over on the dribble and passing up the final layup, to BMac missing the pointblank baseline layup, Withey and KYo giving McGary that uncontested reverse layup, after a loose 50/50 ball, and Releford just absolutely disappearing the last 2:30. EJ also missed 1 (ONE) critical FT that would have put us up 4pts with less than 10sec (Burke’s 3 wouldnt have mattered). The 10sec call on EJ was bogus, it was 8.5 sec. Tape doesnt lie, nor would Self call a bench TO, because he didnt think it 10sec either. Why would he call a timeout when we were trying to run off clock? Frankly, it came down to EJ not making 1 FT that gave Burke the opportunity.
Stanford – Stanford upperclass, long team. Recall the packed in zone? Tarik held his own (18pts), but paid the foul price. 6’8 Ellis and 6’8 Traylor showed limitations to their game, with different analysis for each. I am sharply critical of Perry Ellis. Traylor? Not quite the finisher that Ellis can be…AND we get beat by EKY in the first round (yeah, Mercer-style. NorfolkState style) if Traylor doesnt go 18 & 15. Think about that, and realize this team was a season long aberration from true, dominating Bill Self basketball. The defense and toughness were just pitifully disgusting, with Wiggins and Selden being the most consistent bright spots, along with Traylor. Embiid showed enough glimpses to become an OAD, did enough things to tip the balance in KU’s favor (mostly) on both ends of the floor…but once he was out, it would take a team effort, which was precisely why this team faltered. It didnt have an identity. And y’all saw the guardplay. Come on, we werent going far. Again, it took a superhuman effort by Traylor just to get this team past Eastern Kentucky, which was a 1 possession game with 2-3min to go.
We sat at home, exactly as we should have, since much, much better defense was being played by almost every team in the Elite8. “Only 25 wins” tells you this team had serious flaws, for a Bill Self team. Which tells us Self’s best products are his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year teams. Not a frosh heavy one. Even one with 2 of the top3 NBA picks. When Wiggins can score Durant-like 41pts (at WVU), but KU still loses the game…y’all know thats just not who we are.
Game tape and season-long stats tell the story. This year, we got felled by both. But because of the season-long trends, the Stanford loss shouldnt be such a shock, now should it? I’m NOT going to stroke fellow fans’ hands like some girl and say “I know it hurts”, because the truth of “why” is simply overpowering, and cannot be ignored. I know the players carry the loss with them forever, in a way us fans & alums simply cannot. Care to ask Sherron about UNI, or Collison about Syracuse? Or Reed about VCU? Or how about asking Thomas Robinson, Tyshawn, and Elijah about Kentucky…and coming that close? I think our players pay the ultimate price, as they get to carry that L forever with them, in a way that we never ever could. They will be running re-plays over and over in their memory…but the only kicker is that THEY are in the replay, not executing, not playing D, or failing at the FT line. I will, as a result, be 110% supportive of our past players. Their battles on the hardwood are over. I’ll love all those Jayhawks forever, win or lose. I am less patient with fans (including myself). We need to just understand the reason for the loss, and look for corrections & improvement the following season. That’s really all we can do. Nobody’s team will win it every year. Part of being a fan, of even the winningest programs, is learning, within ourselves, how to handle defeat and learn from it.
My advice: Get ready to Dance next year. And the year after. And the year after that. Put Self’s W% to work for your brain: If he gets in the NC game 4 times, odds are his system/team will win it over 75% of the time. We. Are. Due. But you got to build the machine all season AND never let off the pedal til you get to that final game.
RCJH! Is it October yet…
-
With Embiid I still think we could have won it all. How many picked UCon?
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Yep, crimson, BigBiid gave us a fighting chance, but we just werent the same without him. He gave confidence, as well as literally igniting several transition breaks, and demoralizing opponents. Hoiberg was about as frustrated in a press conference as I’ve seen him after Embiid schooled IowaState in their own gym.
Wouldnt have picked 7seed UConn, who knew? But there is a consolation, sort of: Look what happened to better teams than this year’s KU: FL, AZ, MichState, Syracuse, VA, WSU…ALL bounced! It happens, so how much lamenting can/should we really do about it? We arent some fans of some little school that makes the Tourney once every few years…we go every season, so…with all arrogance aside, we should critically judge each team entering the Sweet16 and be really honest about possible weaknesses and flaws. Good opposing coaches have a way of exposing your weaknesses, just like Stanford did. And if we get beat before the Final 4, allow hindsight and gametape to give the reason on a platter.
-
@ralster I think of EJ when you mentioned players carrying losses w/them. It’s unfair for him to carry that load!
Speaking of Embiid, have you watched any NBA playoff games. I’m not a big fan, but follow Jhawks and watch playoffs. I can’t believe how they can physically go off on each other and are either just fined or suspended. I can’t see how our young (green, soft?) ones can physically hang? Any thoughts?
-
The NBA playoffs have been ubber-competitive this year. Lots of overtime games and lots of wins by visiting teams…an a lot of very physical play. I guess there is a lot more parity in the League now.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Not seen playoffs yet…usually I will watch the Conference Finals (Eastern and Western), then the Finals. I will admit I am a Heat fan, as obviously our hero Chalmers plays for them, and literally gifted the Heat a game in 2 separate seasons’ Finals. LBJ, Wade, and Bosh owe a piece of their championship rings to Mario Chalmers.
I’m also a LBJ fan, as he is a beast and a matchup nightmare. (My all-time fave player was MJ, but the two cannot be compared. If LBJ wins 7 rings, I might consider him for “best ever”, but its MJ for me, for life.)
I’ve been a D.Wade fan ever since Shaq + him won a ring in 2006? D.Wade was that quiet-type of superstar. But I’m afraid that D.Wade’s days are numbered due to his ongoing knee problems.
Always, deep down, will pull for KU players who are on NBA teams, Thomas Robinson and any of the 2008 guys, especially.
-
@ralster let me know what you think after you watch. Anxious to see how the KU young pups do, hope for the best!
