Erron Harris leaving West Virginia, Wigs digs on Stanford and other topics.
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FRANKAMP:
Positives–> Finally showed his 3form coming off screens, shooting in-rhythm…in 1 game, for what its worth. All season, he’d be so wide open that he was seen “measuring up” his 3attempt, thus taking himself out of his natural shooting rhythm. Did show better on-ball D, compared to Tharpe, and picked up a few steals, in his limited mpg, which was notable.
Negatives–> Will not get any taller. Will be challenged defensively by taller, quicker, faster D1 guards (not so much as Tharpe blow-bys, but they’ll shoot over Conner, I already saw that over and over). Will be challenged by short guards in the mold of Sherron, Mason, VanVleet, etc…who simply are built heftier. Is 165-170lbs. Can his frame gain meaningful weight? He is not built like Keiton Page or Phil Forte, nor ever will be.
(Keep in mind Frank Mason is 190lbs). Consider this example, late in the game vs Stanford: Frankamp got body bumped by some-D1-guard-playing-for-Stanford, fell flat on his face, and we turn it over for a quick 2pts by the opponent. That would not happen to Mason or 195lb RussRob. Consider Brady as an example: limited turnovers, 6’4 length to defend with (A-rated defender), 3 shooting. My fear is Conner gives up too much in height and defensive length, and offensive physicality (I am concerned he has confidence issues. He knows he isnt facing h.s.-level Wichita players anymore). Sometimes you know, as a player, when you are overmatched. Imagine Frankamp vs. 6’5 Smart or 6’4 Deandre Kane. I think TCU or TxTech starts a 6’3 guard.Will Connor Frankamp be content being an off-bench backup for Wayne Selden? And why exactly does Bill Self, royalty program coach, have to mask player-defiencies that should be answered by recruiting? It seems to me that other teams have taken Self’s own “big, tough, athletic, do-it-all ‘combo guard’” concept and are starting to beat KU with it. Maybe we are seeing why Tharpe was ranked #91? If you want to talk sub-6ft guards, is it even fair to compare Frankamp (and Tharpe) to Sherron Collins, who played impactful mpg from Day 1, even on a team with Chalmers and Russell Robinson.
Let me put it another way: I am missing the toughness and length of Brady Morningstar and Tyrel Reed (and Tyshawn and EJ). I think Mason is the most Sherron-like sub6footer combo guard we have.
RECRUITING is the issue. Self was a combo guard himself. He has got to get back to his big-athletic-combo guard concept–> chiefly for defensive reasons. Fred Hoiberg is sold on it. Tubby Smith knows. Travis Ford knows. Once in a while you get an exception like Sherron, or a Fred VanVleet-type (I think Mason may be such…but in Year2)…but in this game, there is NO substitue for size, length, and athleticism. I dont know why we would knowingly go in on a guy who gives up too much in today’s game. The days of Jacque Vaughn are over, and also dead. Plus that is Roy ball, no-D-unless-kid-arrived-with-it (Hinrich, Miles). Even ole Roy may have seen the light: 6’3 Marcus Paige is a shootin’ scoring + distributive “combo” guard. But they still lost, because they couldnt stop the other team (no D). Didnt KSU “own” Tharpe with 6’3 Foster as their PG? You think he would have owned RussRob or Tyshawn or EJ? (no, no, and no). This is what Self’s vaunted guard-play has fallen to. Getting bested/beasted in our own league, then handled/Randled by some lesser known combo from S-t-a-n-f-o-r-d.
SelfBall needs its proper pieces for it’s “system” approach to work. Pieces with the right mentality, right athleticism, right length, right work-ethic. Hate being felled by poor execution of what we know is a proven, winning system. Get em on track, Coach…get your toughest, athletic 5 out there! If I was Deandre Kane or Marcus Smart (or Selden/Greene in ku practice) I’d go fade-away-J or dunk on Frankamp and Tharpe all day. Very simple law of basketball, exploit the weakness, be it lack of size or length or quickness.
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@truehawk93 Your summation of Ellis is spot-on. He is a typical Roy Williams MickeyD type of bigman: 6’8, can score, but SOFT against physicality, and defensively…the 2 attributes Bill Self values the most. The problem is personality-traits are hard to change. Same issue with EJ (mentally passive unless he got ticked off). Successful Bill Self players will arrive with a swagger/confidence…an aggressive mentality you can see even as a freshman. Think of Thomas Robinson, Cole Aldrich in his own way, Darrell Arthur, Embiid has it, the Twins and Wiggins were coaxed to show it, Sherron, Mason, Tyshawn, Chalmers, RussRob, and to a certain extent Reed and Rush and McLemore, and for now Selden showed glimpses (the only man who showed up @TX in Austin, good defender, and tougher-than-Smart in AFH).
Half of this game is mental, but you also have to be able to cash the checks physically. Weakness in either area will get you exploited, as opposing coaches will instruct their players accordingly.
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How about an all-swagger/toughness team:
Embiid, Alexander, Greene(&Oubre), Selden, Mason.
Got to shake things up. Got the depth to give 40-min of hell, the Bill Self way (not the “press” Nolan Richardson way).
Call the #91 Tharpe experiment a learning lesson in what can and cant be coached & taught.
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@ralster I’m with you in that I prefer the guards with size, length, & athleticism, but didn’t Louisville just win a NC starting not one but TWO guards that were an even 6’ tall? I mean, if Pitino can make it work with two surely Self can figure out a way to mask 1 of them.
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@ralster tough and athletic! Throw Mari in there too!
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@icthawkfan316 That’s a great point about Louisville, but Russ Smith is an absolute dynamo. Literally, he is almost performing at a Chalmers-like level for Louisville. His announcement that he would return for another year (last April) was absolutely huge for Louisville’s chances this year, and look: they are in the Sweet16.
The other point that comes up, if we use NC Louisville as an example: They had 2 guards, both experienced, working together. I recall their games last season…they were literally as fast as frosh Sherron or Mason, but experienced and capable scorers. And look at us with “our” 3 small guards: we cant even make the sweet 16. So my point exactly is the comparison between our ‘small’ guards and the deficiencies ours show, compared to other small guards, even in KU’s past history, like Sherron or Aaron Miles. I do hold out hope that Mason can develop by next year into another Sherron. He’s got the tools, the build, the swag, and the coaching to do it.
But my final point comes full circle: Why mask? Why give up 4-6 inches? Why not recruit 6’1-6’4 combo guards by the twos and threes? Self’s own history PROVES we need not just 1 (lone EJ example), but 2 or 3, so you have 2 ball-handlers + dangerous scorers on the floor at all times (again, the Michigan lesson, contrasted with the 2008 champs, who had 3 dangerous combo guards). Heck, even with just 2 (TT + EJ), we make it all the way to the '12Champ game, breaking the hearts of Purdue, UNC, OhioState along the way.
We are at the point, we KNOW our system is superior, if executed to its “usual” extent. We just need the right personnel. I think Selby leaving early killed us against '12 KY, while his foot injury helped limit our potential in 2011, as did Reed’s foot injury also in 2011 (2 combo’s at 80%). I think Royce Woolridge leaving hurt us. I think Appleton not working out hurt us. Its not that Self hasnt tried, but you have to go to battle with what you have, and there are NO guarantees that ANY kid will work out, as we see with Tharpe. Mason is showing more as a frosh than Frankamp, or Tharpe ever showed as a frosh, and “frankly”, more than Tharpe shows as a junior. Each player’s learning curve, and response to the big lights is different, and Mason has been good at both aspects.
Sorry to be a bit harsh, analytically, on Frankamp, so maybe the best statement on him is let’s just see how he develops over the summer and how he plays next season.
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As usual, you make some good points.
My issue with Mason is that he still has the HS volume shooter/scorer mentality and, at this time, he is a score first pas second point guard, and the reason why he got the quick hook from Coach Self lots of times.
He also reminds me of a young Sherron charging blindly ahead only to get trapped in the corner or on the base line; of course as he matured he was a lot more controlled. Mason tends to do the same thing, drive blindly to the hoop only to find himself surrounded by much taller players under the basket and get his shot blocked or commit a turnover. Once he gets his game under control and learns to distribute the ball, he could be very good.
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Jordan Tolbert from TT is also transferring.
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The challenge for KU next year is that the returning players must answer some significant questions that will unlock the success (or failure) of the 2014-15 squad.
Tharpe - Can he defend PGs at a level that will allow him to play 25+ minutes as a starting PG? Right now, he is a huge defensive liability, which means he can’t always be given minutes. Even more than his turnovers, his shaky defense really hurt KU this year.
Selden - Can he help create offense for himself and other perimeter players? This year, one of the reasons we saw a lot of inconsistency game to game from Selden and Wiggins was that wing players are dependent on solid PG play. If you’re a perimeter player and you aren’t the primary ball handler, you must get the ball in positions that allow you to get right into your moves. If that doesn’t happen, you will always be facing a set defense, and that will bring your effectiveness down. We don’t know if PG play will improve next year, so the next best option is to see Selden be able to take on ball responsibility offensively to get himself, Oubre, Frankamp and Greene all perimeter scoring opportunities, whether that’s on the catch and shoot, or on the drive.
Ellis - Can he legitimately cover either 3’s or 4’s on a nightly basis? Perry struggled against quick guys and bigger guys. That’s a problem because you can’t depend on the opposition always being both smaller and slower than you. He has to be able to either bang with the big guys or move on the perimeter with the quick ones. If he can’t do either, I’m not sure he can be a 25-30 mpg guy like we are hoping.
Greene - Can he be instant offense consistently? Somebody has to come off the bench and be able to score. Greene needs to be able to check in at the 13 minute mark and provide some positive value on the offensive end, while also being at least respectable defensively.
Frankamp - Same as Greene, but the challenge for him is to do that while also being able to take care of the basketball. He’s never going to be a dominant scorer in college, but he can be a very effective offensive player, and so long as he can keep his man in front of him defensively, KU can live with him giving up jumpers.
Mason - I am officially tabbing him the most important returning player. Can he unseat Tharpe and provide a steady hand at the point? His inability to steady the ship this season meant that KU didn’t always have an option when Tharpe struggled. Seeing as we currently don’t have a PG in the recruiting fold, Mason has to provide a steady hand (and a threat to the starting spot), or we could be felled by curious PG play for a third consecutive year.
Traylor - Can he consistently hit from 12-15 feet? That’s the last thing missing from his offensive package. He added the ability to drive this year. Now if he can get a decent mid range jumper, that will prevent teams from sagging into the paint off him. I’d also like to see him bulk up a bit so he can handle bigger post guys. Right now, Ellis has to be paired with someone that can handle the bigger post players. Traylor can help our roster flexibility if he can do that.
Lucas - What kind of player is he? Is he an end of the bench guy, or can he contribute something in 15 mpg? That’s really what we need to see next year.
Mickelson - He’s the X-factor. I honestly don’t know what he will bring to the table. If he’s legitimately good as a two way player, he and Alexander may help solve many of the issues we ran into this season. If he’s another one way player, we may struggle again, as we could run into stretches where either the offense can’t function, or the defense turns into a sieve.
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@ralster Interesting fact about Smith, he wasn’t ranked coming out of high school by either Rivals nor ESPN. Rivals listed him as a 3-star recruit.
Anyway, to your statement that “we KNOW our system is superior, if executed to its “usual” extent. We just need the right personnel.” The problem is, as you illustrated, is that we don’t always have the right personnel. Not for lack of trying, but sometimes you don’t land who you’d like to in recruiting, sometimes guys leave or transfer, and sometimes they just don’t pan out. In fact, I would say that more years than not Self (or any coach) is not going to get the exact perfect mix of personnel that he wants. So given that you will have more years without the ideal personnel, should it not be on the coach and the system to adapt to the players and their strengths? I think that is something that is frustrating a lot of fans. I’m not a fan of throwing the system out all together (some suggested going zone as our PRIMARY defense this past year), but it must be flexible, and that is the answer to your question: why mask? Because you have to, or you get torched trying to do it the same way with inadequate personnel.
Again, I’m all for drafting bigger guards. But there just aren’t that many out there that are skilled enough, especially when you factor in that this is not a novel idea and that the vast majority of college coaches are trying to recruit along the same lines. And when I say there aren’t that many, I mean there aren’t that many to guarantee you’re going to have 3-4 on your roster year in year out.
As far as Frankamp goes, I’m higher on him than you, but not through the roof sold on him. He did show up in both tournament games when Tharpe & Mason didn’t. That’s something. One thing that I personally can’t trust anymore is the statements from fans saying things like “well he couldn’t beat out Tharpe in practice, otherwise we would have seen him playing.” Maybe he routinely beat out Tharpe, just like he outperformed him against Stanford, yet there Self was playing Tharpe more in the second half than Frankamp.
The thing that strikes me as odd in this whole debate is that you seem to be completely sold on Mason. I like Mason. A lot. But when you lead with Frankamp’s weaknesses as “Will not get any taller” I think “well neither will Mason, who is listed as an inch shorter.” Or when you say “If I was Deandre Kane or Marcus Smart (or Selden/Greene in ku practice) I’d go fade-away-J or dunk on Frankamp and Tharpe all day”, I think “but not Mason, because he…?” I get it that Mason is more explosive and is stronger, but it just seems your major problem with Frankamp is his height, and I don’t see how Mason is any better in that regard.
I actually think Frankamp compares more favorably to VanVleet than does Mason. Just watching him play those two tournament games, he had a confidence that he wasn’t going to get ripped, his passes were crisp and had intent to them (not all of the just pass it around the perimeter types of passes that you see from Tharpe), his decision making and basketball IQ seemed infinitely higher than Tharpe and a decent amount higher than Mason. Oh, and Frankamp wasn’t body bumped on that turnover. His feet got tangled with the Stanford defender. I don’t care how strong you are, you get tripped, you’re going down.
Right now I think Mason is more freshman year Sherron than upperclassman Sherron. He is a spark plug, but he is no where near ready to run the team yet. Which is fine, as he was only a freshman. We’ll see how it shakes out over the summer. I’ll be more than happy if either of CF or Mason can take the reigns from Tharpe.
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He also reminds me of a young Sherron charging blindly ahead only to get trapped
I think Mason and Wiggins had the same tendency and once they started driving they could never dish. It almost seemed they had tunnel vision and could only see the basket in front of them or had no plan 2 once they started moving. Otherwise Mason had a few beautiful lob passes to Wiggins when he was almost standing still.
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@icthawkfan316 Mason and van fleet have no fear taking it to the hole, just can’t see Conner having any confidence doing that. Hands down, Conner is the better shooter, but, for now, doesn’t seem to be as strong as the other 2.
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I forgot to mention as some of you have that we have Mickelson. Now, he’ll be a junior, one year of playing experience, but more than a year of learning the self system. He’s going to be an elder on this team and if he has the skills to go with it, which we hope he does, may pay big dividends on this team.
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@Crimsonorblue22 You are correct from a strength standpoint. But that is just one aspect. Also, Mason’s drives were almost never (can’t even recall one time) designed to create for others. He gathered a head of steam and charged into the lane. That isn’t all bad; we even got the reference to Tyshawn bricking so many of his driving shots and how that was a good thing in that it created offensive rebounds for his teammates. But ideally he can do both - look to score & create. Connor, while not proficient at driving the lane, was able to create offense for others during the tournament.
I look at Connor being more similar in that he seems confident and capable of running the offense, whereas Mason right now seems to operate as just a cog in the offense, not as someone leading it. Like I said, he’s like freshman year Sherron. A spark plug. A “3rd down back” as I’ve heard it referred to before. Now if he can progress, as Sherron did to a large extent, to become more of a floor general, than he would possess most of the tools CF has plus some physical advantages.
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@icthawkfan316 Mason did throw a couple of oops in that final game. He penetrated and dished. I think he’s getting better, hopefully a lot better!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Penetrated & dished? I remember it more along the lines that @Wishawk described, in that he was almost standing still.
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Since we compared Mason to Collins a lot this year here’s the freshmen stats.
Sherron 22 min. 9.3 pts 3.5 ast. 40% on threes 76% FTs
Mason 16 min. 5.5 pts 2.0 ast. 33% on threes 66% FTs
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@icthawkfan316 Mason and Conner 4 assists against eku, Mason 2 against Stanford. I guess I’m wrong, I thought he got inside the zone a few times.
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@wissoxfan83 Thanks for digging up the stats. As expected, Sherron was better. But it’s important to remember that Sherron was a highly sought after 5 star recruit, whereas Mason was a 3 star recruit that initially committed to Towson. I don’t think the ceiling is nearly as high for Mason as it was Sherron. Which is not to say that the rankings are the be all & end all of a player’s talents & ceiling, but they are a useful guide.
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@icthawkfan316 think one of those lobs was to black??? Wigs only had 1 basket. If Ellis would, could, should of made a few more, they all would have more assists! We would all be in better moods! Speaking for myself!
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I think Mason and Wiggins had the same tendency and once they started driving they could never dish. It almost seemed they had tunnel vision and could only see the basket in front of them or had no plan 2 once they started moving. Otherwise Mason had a few beautiful lob passes to Wiggins when he was almost standing still.
The difference is that Wiggins is 9 inch taller and is able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, Mason…not so much.
Chuck Norris, on the other hand, does not need to leap over tall building, the buildings move out of the way…:)
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In summary, as I’ve posted before (as has HEM): I think SelfBall “lives and thrives” in the somewhat narrow confines of operating BEST with recruits ranked 10-50, with the main explanation that these arent OADs, since it requires 1-2yrs to learn all the plays and execute at an above-avg level…and thus, guys arent leaving before they can adeptly run what we do. We can’t be a Bill Self product without the execution of all that it requires.
How telling that the best defenders were actually freshmen! But we lived (& died) with the roller coaster that freshmen are from a consistency standpoint, even if they are the #1 ranked freshman (the marvelous Wiggins can have an off game, yes it’s true, as did Jabari Parker…several of them in January where Parker avg’d 10ppg less). Personnel problem when your returnees (Ellis & Tharpe) cannot carry the torch. Not a system-flaw, as the “system” was thoroughly proven by the experience and quality, athletic, and tough depth of the 2008 champs, Self’s best team. The 2007 team (same guys, LESS experienced, get beat by UCLA) proving some of the same point, and the 2011 overall #1 team again proved Self can plug the right talent in, and achieve his trademark team performance. The 2012 team comes VERY close to the 2008 standard, as those starting 5 were just about everything a Self team should be, minus quality depth on the bench.
If the 2012 Jayhawks were an overachieving underdog (judging against other Self ku teams), then the 2013-14 team was an underachieving overdog based on results…(but we get to use inexperience and Embiid’s injury as an excuse, if it makes us feel any better?). That doesnt help me feel better about the overall #1 MorrisHawks going down to VCwho…that was a worse fail, but that’s about in-game execution, not personnel failure. Maybe on par with Michigan loss, but then we were a “softer” post presence last year than we were this year.
The inexplicable VCU or UNI type losses will happen to anybody, and are worse because of seeming strength in most statistical areas…while this year’s team has obvious problems all season long, basically unmasked in an ugly .500ball sort of way our last 6games.
Another thought: Yes the game has evolved from Self’s days at Tulsa and Illinois. His mid-major approach of crafting a tough team of upperclassmen into winners is somewhat leveled by where the midmajors have moved the bar in the past 10yrs: look at WSU and Gonzaga, Dayton, Davidson, etc…and now the recurring talking-head phrase of “parity”. Many of the kids at lesser schools played AAU against the top recruits. So, honestly, Self’s remaining “edge” has been getting his ‘higher-ranked’ recruits to learn and stay&play x 2-4 years.
The reality test is imagine how good the returnees will be next year, and you can leave out Ellis and Tharpe as aberrations to the usual Self-improvement rule. Just as I’m excited by what Cliff Alexander and Oubre may bring, I’m equally excited to see what Lucas and Mickelson and Greene, AW3, Mason, and Selden can do. We’d be final-four good if Embiid returns…
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@ralster Great summary!
I too wish Embiid come back next year. Guess he may have to choose to be either one of the guys next year or another Hakim Olajuwon when he is ready. But he will have millions regardless.
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@icthawkfan316 Good points! I had forgotten Russ Smith was a 3star…but one that obviously panned out. I will agree that Connor can do some things definitely better than Mason and Tharpe. Mason can do some things that Tharpe and Connor cannot. I seem to feel that Mason got under better control as the season went on, and his assists went up. Against Duke, yes, he had a good game, but it was all as a pressure-penetrator (not to dish, but to score or get fouled).
That is the main difference I see in Mason from Frankamp, is the physicality and the aggression. To me, that compensates for the lack of height. I notice that Self likes that bull-headed aggression also, and thats why he played Mason more than Connor. Also, Connor couldnt get his 3gun going ALL season, actually registering as the worst 3pt shooter on the team, behind Selden, Ellis, Wiggins, Tharpe, Greene. While I’d love to see Frankamp blossom into a 40% 3bomber, and pass-creating PG, he has to show consistency for us to believe he has found his 3stroke. Selden’s 3% steadily got better, as did Wiggins’.
We desperately need consistent PG play, and it cannot be by “committee”, as that creates a split-chemistry amongst the players, depending on who the PG is.
Again, regarding the “height” thing: Sherron wasnt getting any taller either, but he was able to play, defend, score from Day 1, partly because he had the 5star MickeyD ability, and partly because of his physically imposing stature, a muscular running back coming at you. I just dont see Frankamp or Tharpe capable of such type of aggressive play. Let’s also not leave out the aggressive mentality Sherron had.
And finally, I know this biases my argument for tougher, stronger, bigger, aggressive guards: But Self LOVES that type of kid. He was shocked when Selby left, as he saw a 6’2 version of Sherron in him, and that same “ornery” swagger. Its what he/we had in Chalmers and RussRob, as well as Tyshawn.
Your point about us not getting what recruit we want, or a recruit not working out is a great point. And we literally live and die on the hardwood, based on these various kids’ learning curves. The search continues, and its open competition. May the best kid win the PG role.
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@ralster I was thinking how many players Sherron could destroy w/these new rules.
