Why Can't Selden Be a Good PG?
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Never intentionally by me. Can’t speak for the mischievousness of others, however. And one thing that is nice about everyone being able to edit everyone is this: we all have deniability for everything we write. We get to say, "Hey, I sure as hell don’t recall writing that; probably someone else edited me without my knowledge. " I have always looked on this feature of the site with some comfort for that reason.
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Pretty sure our readers can read the “last edited by Jaybate” on the bottom! VERY Nice try!
Now, all joshing aside, how will our readers know which part of the above quote you wrote and which part jaybate wrote?
I believe this is in part what Baudrillard was trying to get at.
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@jaybate-1.0 Dribbling is for suckers? I am running out the door – but while @jaybate-1.0 being so completely wrong is an odd occurrence, much like the Royals advancing to the World Series, it can happen. This be it. Can’t let this one pass.
@nuleafjhawk That’s funny …
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Do you really think Wayne would get drafted with a 32% trey ball?
Selden shot .336 for the year and .346from the 3 during the more difficult conference play. What makes you think that he would get worse instead of better?
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Knew “dribbling is for suckers” was going to cause a ton of “change-the-way-we-think” pain.
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I was posing a hypothetical that you still did not answer. But that’s okay. I don’t believe Wayne would get drafted at 30% from trey. I believe the draft rankings are based on the assumption that he WILL get better at the trey this season, because he will not be playing on a bum wheel.
So: I don’t think he will get worse, but…
Bill said he doesn’t care if Wayne only shoots 30% from trey; that tells me Bill is not exactly expecting Wayne to light up the nets at 40% from outside this season.
Next, I read that Bill is planning on playing Wayne (and Oubre) at 4, and thinking Wayne is the better prospect at the 4. Maybe Wayne will be a stretch 4 and pot a lot of treys on step outs? Maybe, but stretch is the operant word.
I just don’t think Wayne is a credible Pro 2 with a 30% college trey.
And unless he gets to 38% from trey, I think he has a real tough go in the draft. Remember, Travis shot 42% and didn’t get a sniff.
Post Script: I suspect that the reason Wayne will be getting looks at the 4 has to do with what I noticed in some of the summer feeds of his play since ‘recovering’ from the injury. He doesn’t seem to be able to no step jump very well. That means the explosiveness has not fully restored. That means he will have to convert to a shot with less elevation. That means you may want him to spend less time on the perimeter. And more time at the high post. Where his mobility is a problem for bigs, and helps him create space to get his J off from a lower elevation.
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No team in its right mind would draft Selden to play PF or even SF; Wayne is natural SG and that is where he would play in the NBA. It really does not make any difference what position a player plays in college, the position that he will play in the NBA is dictated by his build and talent and Selden is the stereotype 2. Frankamp is a better 3 point shooter than Selden or Releford and the chances that he will play in the NBA are extremely small; he is not fast/athletic enough to play PG even in college and not big enough to play SG .
Much like Ellis, Releford is what the NBA calls tweeners, that is players that are in-between two position and typically play one in college but cannot play their more natural position in the pros and cannot make it to the league. Ellis has the mentality and moves of a PF but he just does not have the build and power to play PF in the NBA, and the SF is his more natural position and the one he would play in the NBA, provided he can develop a consistent outside shot and can increase his lateral speed to guard the athletic NBA SFs. Same thing with Chalmers, he was a turnover machine in college when he tried to play PG and was switched to SG, but to play in the NBA he had to learn to play PG because that is his more natural position; it did help that he was good 3-point shooter. By the way, Norris Cole is now the starting PG at Miami and Chalmers is coming off the bench.
As I said, Selden is already a 35% 3 point shooter and he will only get better; he will play SG in the NBA, regardless of what he plays at KU. Keep in mind that in college, players are drafted based on talent/potential and coaches will take the highest ranked player even if they have other players at the same position, and later they will get shuffled to fill team needs. If the team needs a SF and none is available, then the coach will move either a SG or a PF to that position. In the NBA, on the other hand, players are drafted or acquired at any time to fill specific needs; if a SF is needed the team will either draft one or trade for one and seldom play a player outside his natural position…they can do this because they can draft/trade/buy players at any time; college teams cannot.
Specifically answering your question: Selden 3 point average will improve this season and he will get drafted and play SG in the NBA.
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@jaybate-1.0 Love the out of the box post. I was thinking Swee (or should we drop all the formalities, and just start calling him Chandler?), with some intense work, would look "Swee"t at the 2, towering over every opponent. I am sure we will see Wayne at pg on occasion, though it certainly won’t be permanent. On another note, I have tried to say Svi’s name, and can’t do without developing a mini- lisp, so I will be referring to him as Swee. Now, if he decides to pay us a visit, and objects to my liberal pronunciation, then I will forced to bite the bullet, and “say and spray”. Until then, he’s Swee to me.
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@KUSTEVE Svi
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@Crimsonorblue22 he,he,he…
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“Do you really think Wayne would get drafted with a 32% trey ball?”
I think we all admit he needs to increase his % to increase his draft stock.
Am I the only one that thinks he’ll bump his trey % up this year? He played hurt last year and I’ve never known a player who played hurt and shot a decent % from trey.
Maybe CS is playing poker and tossing out bluff verbiage… but if he is not and he intends to give Wayne some minutes at the 4 then we should read between the lines to know that Wayne is back to 100% health, because there is no way he gets minutes at the 4 on a bum leg.
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“Much like Ellis, Releford is what the NBA calls tweeners”
I agree Releford is a tweener… but I see Perry as a clear 3 in the league (size wise). No way is he a 4 or even close. Perry should start thinking of what he will need to be at the next level now, while he has time to improve his outside game and penetration capabilities.
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I have pondered how I might respond to @jaybate-1.0’s suggestion that ball handling is really not that important – “dribbling is for suckers” was the soon to be infamous quote.
I will look at this from an opposing coach’s perspective. Wayne Selden is Kansas’ point guard. I’m coaching the opposing team.
First, I put my quickest guard on Selden. I don’t worry about supposed size disadvantage. Self doesn’t post up his point guards. I instruct my quick defender to make Selden’s life hell. Pick him up every and anywhere. Why? Because he’s a plodder with the ball, and his handles are loose. I suggest a few focus points. When Wayne moves to his right, front him and turn him. Left hand is weaker. This applies to many PGs, but Wayne’s left hand is much more vulnerable because his overall skill level is lower dribbling the ball. Thus his left hand is much weaker than the average PG’s off hand. Next, because he is a poor dribbler, his ability to protect the ball is an issue – the ability to go behind his back or between his legs to change directions is limited. This is critical. Use of those two moves, and in combination, can define point guards at this level. Therefore, as he changes direction, right to left, look for the tip steal. He’ll likely move the ball in front of his body as the basic cross over is all he can reliably do. Finally, again because his ability to go behind back/between legs is limited, be ready for Selden to turn his back. This pivot move is common, and useful periodically, but is evidence of weakness when other options are unavailable. When he is dribbling right handed and turns, he’ll move the ball to his left hand … that’s the tip steal opportunity. Because of the quickness advantage, we’ll have time to recover.
Second, because Selden’s passing ability in pressure situations is not stellar, as demonstrated by last year’s balls in the front row, we’ll select certain opportunities to flash trap Selden. Selden can’t dribble to beat the trap anywhere on the court, and he’s not quick enough to bolt with the ball when he sees it. One time in particular where he’ll be very vulnerable is on the wing in the back court after a missed basket. Kansas likes to pass to the free throw line extended after the board. We’ll be ready. Poor ball handlers are susceptible to panicking when when the flow is going down the court, backs to the point guard. Guys aren’t coming to the ball. But we’ll look for trap opportunities everywhere.
Third, because of his poor ball handling and lack of PG experience, Selden will be less likely to be able to play and not think. Offense is much about rhythm. We want to destroy rhythm and make Kansas get deep in the shot clock. Therefore, we’ll be attentive to taking away the entry pass to start the offense. This can apply even on resets deeper in the shot clock. Make Selden do something with the ball. If they back cut, let’s see him make that pass with a dude in his face. We can over commit and get the offense out of rhythm. With a true point guard, we can’t do that … we have to worry about being broken down off the dribble, and then the ball delivered off the dribble. That is, the PG can simply blow by to the hoop and create. We have never seen Selden do this. Because we have our quickest guy guarding Selden, this is effectively eliminated. We aren’t threatened off the dribble, which changes the dynamic.
Fourth, I press with different looks, trap spots, and variations – alternatively to having my defender pressure Selden one on one. We mix it up. Most likely, my team has less talent than Kansas. I need a game changer. So we press. Having a poor ball handler makes my job easier. It also creates more risk for Kansas. Coach Self explained why he doesn’t press. He said that a team with good ball handlers wants to be pressed. That’s because they can break the press. What we saw in 2013-14 with Kansas, even with one ball handler on the court (Tharpe), teams made KU slow to a crawl by employing a press. KU had to pass, spot to spot. Now, KU has Selden at PG. He was KU’s worst guard against the press last season.
Dribbling is for suckers … uh, no. This game is dictated by ball handling. Ball handling opens a world of possibilities to every player possessing the skill. Ball handling is the one singular skill that a team cannot survive without. And a team that discounts its value is destined for failure.
It is exactly why coach Self has noted that we need more “ball handling and play making.” Ball handling and play making go hand in hand, but you can have the former without the latter … but rarely can you have the latter without the former. The ball handling puts you in the position to make plays. Selden’s strengths are not found in either category. He is, as Self said, a “big wing.” Can we simply permit Selden to be the biggest and baddest big wing he can be? I’m good with that.
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So nice to read. Thank you!
HEM… please… please… please… come on board as a Professor in teaching “X-axis Fundamentals 101?”
You have micro-processed a perfect example for how all the Davids can slay the Goliaths.
I wish you and I could sit in a film room looking at UK footage and scout a victory plan for our game. They’ve got more holes in their game than a hunk of Swiss cheese… but many already feel defeated because of their height.
I have to hand it to Cal, since he can’t out-coach anyone he’ll just let teams out-coach themselves.
One good ball handler ends any potential threat from a press, from traps (also in the half court), and opens up attacking the rim, either to finish or to feed a big.
I’ve never been totally impressed with our big national stat of how many of our baskets come from an assist. It is nice to have a high number but when it is too high it indicates a lack of ability to drive the ball. We’ll never win another NC by just having a zillion team assists. Standing around, passing quickly and looking for openings isn’t a bad strategy until it is the only thing you can do! Over recent years, it is the only thing we can do, and when we get into March, teams are playing their best and have scouted us, and they know how to shift off our passes and limit openings.
I really dislike our offense when it goes flat, and we have 3 guards standing still on the perimeter, passing it back and fourth… quicker each time thinking the defense won’t quite make it back into position next time. Then, with 5 seconds left on the shot clock we make a desperate attempt at a shot.
If we want to take a lesson on team offense we should be watching the Spurs playoff games this past season. They moved the ball quickly, but not back and forth on a half circle. They had players cutting, screening, pick and rolls… and often they would take advantage of match-ups.
I’d have to say that they ran the best team offense I have ever watched in the NBA. They definitely do not have the most talent of any team to play, but the way they played, they could have beat probably any past NBA team.
I know this is college ball, and young guys will only execute to a certain level. But come on… we should be able to do a lot more on offense than what we’ve been showing the last few years. The rigidity has been horrible. We don’t ever even look like we are having fun out there. The guys look more relieved than having fun when we do execute.
The way to utilize Wayne is to move him around in a game and look for match-ups he can exploit. If he stays healthy this year he should be able to exploit just about anyone. Invite teams to bring their zones… those are perfect for this scenario because Wayne can pick who he wants to attack just by hanging out in that player’s zone area. One super killer offensive player can destroy zones all by himself. This is college ball, not pro, so teams won’t know how to fix the situation when Wayne explodes for 30+. I can see him having some big number games a lot more than I can see Perry doing it.
This could be a team where we have a hard time finding scorers.
I believe I’d make Wayne our #1 “go to” guy.
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Spot on. I have been saying all along that to get to the next level you need an elite PG; I even started a thread about bigs and smalls and in my opinion, the PG was the key. A PG that cannot dribble is by definition not a PG but a SG or even a SF. To be an elite PG, a player must be a superior dribbler as well, as you so eloquently outlined in your post.
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@jaybate-1.0 I’m sure if you could sit in on practice and see what happens day after day and put Frank and Conner and Devonte and Wayne through basic ball handling skills tests, you’d find the first three far superior to the last.
And the fact that Self does not give Devonte a clear edge means…absolutely nothing at this point. What, are you reading cat entrails now?
And Wayne can’t be developed into a point guard because he’s only going to be here one more year. You can’t “develop” ball handling skills and quickness into a player in one year.
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@jaybate-1.0 lol, Dribbling is for suckers! WHAT are you smoking, Jaybate? Okay, I get it–you’re just trolling for a response. You got me. Touche!
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@ everyone
Dribbling to win REALLY IS for suckers. Dribbling to get open is the hardest way to get open and the easiest way to get stopped. Dribbling is always the second option to passing for a reason. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves for getting sucked into the dribbling versus passing debate on the side of dribbling.
More good passing teams than good dribbling teams win rings.
Teams can win rings without above average dribbling, but not without above average passing.
Wooden proved with 6-4, not-very-athletic, but sharp-passing Greg Lee at point guard that you can win a ring with an average dribbler that dribbles high, if he can pass well! At 6-4, Lee could feed Walton and Wilkes over the top and on cuts. Passing, not dribbling is the key.
Average dribbling is all any good passing team needs.
Average dribbling means good enough to methodically get the ball into position for all the different kinds of passes that winning teams need to make, while protecting from strips.
Any press can be beaten by average dribblers that are good passers. Period.
I know this is one of those old lessons that has to be dusted off every few years in the age of hype, and retaught, especially when dribble penetration is hyped as the way to beat the new officiating. But dribbling to win always over time is exposed to be the fool’s gold approach to playing winning basketball.
Phog would tell you.
Iba would tell you.
Wooden would tell you.
Knight would tell you.
K would tell you.
Roy would tell you.
Self would tell you.
Putting the ball on the deck is the HARD way.
It always looks sexy and heroic, because its one guy doing the work while the other four guys stand with thumbs where the sun don’t shine waiting for a dish.
Cal uses the dribble drive offense. He can’t win diddledy squat unless he has twice the talent of those he plays.
Self tried building around dribble penetration with Tyshawn and got a long way, because Tyshawn was freakishly fast, Self and Joe D were great at masking and breaking down defensive tendencies of opponents, and Self had the mandatory three extraordinary players in TT, TRob and Withey, but he came up short.
Bo Ryan relied on dribble drive penetration enabled by great trey shooting and came up short.
Kevin Ollie foundationed on dribble drive penetration with Shabazz and won. So big deal. The exception proves the rule.
I concede absolutely that we are in a period when coaches have forgotten the cardinal rule that passing beats dribbling and are trying to win with the dribble drive, but it ain’t working generally.
Self has produced the highest winning percentage of all coaches not being asymmetrically stacked by the PetroShoeCos (i.e., Cal) the last decade and he has done it almost entirely with average dribbling combos and passing.
Good passing teams beat good dribbling team more often than not.
Dribbling is for suckers.
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Allen Iverson called and he said you are nuts…and he still thinks practice is overrated.
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Thanks, with Allen Iverson you have just made my case for me definitively.
He was as good as they come at scoring off the dribble. Inside. Outside. In between. AI proved you don’t need height to create enough space with a dribble to score huge numbers of points in college and pro.
Ah, but even LB could not figure out a way get him to win a ring with a team foundationed on AI’s dribble. His only trip to the Finals they got beat handily.
AI, the no-ring-ever in college or pro wonder really could never find a way to “getter done” with or without talented teams, and with or without great coaching, at the college, or pro level.
Dribbling is for suckers.
Dribbling is not for winners.
Cousy could dribble circles around anyone. But Auerbach taught him that great passing was the key to winning.
The guy was such a piece of work that he could only muster a bronze in the Olympics playing for USA! OMG! That is like missing Mt. Everest with a smart bomb!
Well, wait a second, AI was gold at FIBA. Ooooh wow!!!
Dribbling is for suckers!
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Thanks, with Allen Iverson you have just made my case for me definitively.
Only in your mind Jaybate, only in your mind…
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Jesus, are you one of those don’t confuse me with the facts types, or what?
I’ve never had such an easy case to make, made for me. Thanks.
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Like I said, only in your mind Jaybate, only in your mind…
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Now Backfill…
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@globaljaybird
Now, that is funny!!!
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Back Fill here.
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And here.
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And here.
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And then here too.
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and don’t forget here.
Howling!
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Dribbling is for suckers.
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And here.
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Dribbling is for suckers = Jumping the shark.
When you find yourself in a hole …stop digging. - Will Rogers
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If I must be taken to task, let it be by you.
But…
Your first, second, third and fourth clauses depend on an assumption I shall forthwith knocketh out from under thee.
Wayne Selden played most of his freshman season on a knee injury.
Let me see here…hmmm…how shall I put it?
It is very difficult for most freshman, even OADs, to adjust to the speed and physicality of the D1 game, even, when they are, like, say, Andrew Wiggins, playing without injury.
Next, healthy players that you suggest should be able to start and or compete for starting at PG for KU, like, say, Frank Mason, could not stay on the floor at PG last season, against an often bumbling incompetent like Naa Tharpe, or at the 2 last season, when Selden needed a blow, as many total minutes as Wayne Selden stayed on the floor with one good knee.
And you have no problems with arguing that Devonte might well be able to play a lot of minutes at PG as a freshman, when everyone would agree that he is not nearly the athlete that Wayne Selden is, when Wayne is healthy. I don’t follow this logical at all. Devonte will have to go through adjusting to D1 speeds and violence at 6-2 and a haricot vert svelte 175, and somehow he will magically be able to necessarily be better than Wayne Selden?
Finally, and this is where the knocking out of the assumption that Selden cannot play PG commences in earnest swiftness, Wayne Selden is reputedly entirely healthy and recovered this season. Despite my personal concerns that his explosiveness may not have been restored. Coach Self thinks his explosiveness has returned. Coach Self thinks Wayne is such a superb basketball player that he plans to play Wayne at the 1, 2, 3 and 4 positions. Now notice that Self uses the numeral 1.
1 typically refers to the point guard, does it not? Thus we can begin by concluding that Coach Self categorically disagrees with your assumption that Wayne Selden could not possibly play point guard for the four clauses you posited above.But more important than Self thinking Wayne can play some PG, is the fact that he apparently thinks this because Wayne is now healthy.
I have had both ankle and knee injuries during my too short playing days in basketball. And I recall through this addled old brain of mine that particularly a knee injury makes it tough to dribble and cut, and dribble and pass, and dribble and get by opponents. And being unable to move quickly and surely on a bum wheel often restricts the kinds of passes one can make in any given situation, because one cannot get into a proper place on the court to make the proper pass.
Another thing about knee and ankle issues is that they tend to reduce one to just trying to survive during the season rather than spend a lot of time focused on being able to put in the kind of work necessary to really get better at things like dribbling, passing, guarding and jump shooting. My guess, and it is ONLY a reasonable guess, is that the Wayne Selden you saw that lead you to the strikingly pessimistic conclusion about Wayne’s ability to handle the ball was biased to far to the negative early by Wayne’s freshman struggle to adapt to D1 speeds, followed by Wayne’s knee injury that spanned most of the season. As a result, I have a wild and crazy hunch that Wayne is now sharply better at everything you doubt about him, and that he will continue to rapidly improve in these regards and others if Self tasks him with doing so.
But, of course, I could be entirely wrong about all of this.
Wayne Selden could be an athlete that is unaffected by knee injury and lacks entirely the getting better gene when it comes to dribbling and passing.
But then you could be wrong, too.
Thank heavens we have the reality of seasons to lift us up out of these mysteries.
(P.S.: Seriously, you know I respect your judgement and because it is you disagreeing with me I will doubt myself even more than usual.)
My hunch is that Wayne’s good health is going to allow him to resolve all four issues you raise
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@jaybate-1.0 I won’t say he cannot, but last year post conf when he did try to drive to the rack, his head was down & blindly headed into the trees, often with unfavorable results. Once conf began he pretty much stopped trying. In fact more often than not, it seemed the entire team stood back & waited for Wigs & Embid to take over. After Joel was injured it became even more obvious. JMO
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@jaybate-1.0 har·i·cot vert noun \ˌär-ē-kō-ˈver
plural har·i·cots verts also haricot vertsDefinition of HARICOT VERT
: a thin green bean
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@Crimsonorblue22 Go girl !!
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@globaljaybird
Here again, I argue that what you note is not so much an indication of his structural inabilities to learn the point guard role, as early struggles with D1 speeds, and very shortly knee injury limiting his capabilities to adapt, perform well, and to get better.
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@globaljaybird
HOWLING!
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@ et al
Alright, alright, I am just not as young as I used to be.
I have been trying to play n-dimensional ping pong posting this morning and, as I used to do so effortlessly before the old age crap caught up with me, and I am already tired. What a weeny I have become.
Nevertheless, I believe this old coot has done his duty to get community blood pumping as the great evil of college basketball–UK–sails towards us like a bunch of Yamatos and Akagis, while Chester Self and Ray Roberts and Bull Howard and Frank Townsend make a target of part of their fleet and move their OAD and TAD carriers off to an unexpected angle and lay down smoke and misleading SigInt to prepare for sailing into harm’s way.
Over and out for now.
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“Dribbling is for slobbers!”
My 14-month old is an excellent dribbler… right off his chin!
He can also dribble a mini KU ball pretty well on a mini table.
I don’t think he is ready to battle Kentucky this early in the season, but give him another couple of years.
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@jaybate-1.0 You said, “But then you could be wrong, too.” I’m shocked. I know @Crimsonorblue22 is too. I must retreat. The last word is yours. Good discussion all the way around.
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@drgnslayr I had hours and hours of fun and memories with mine when they were young with a little breakawy kids hoop in our dining room (converted to a play room). Some of the best fun were games of horse, double banks off the wall and ceiling. Wish they were young again … enjoy every minute.
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@drgnslayr so slayer, did you grow any haricot verts in your garden this year? I did! How did I do Jaybate?
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You tended a garden. If you shared your produce wth even one person you were not related to, then you are a good person deserving of going to heaven in my eyes.
Vaya con dios.
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@jaybate-1.0 I did share, but believe I need to do more than that!!
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That is really quite enough. Share twice and you will so stand out in heaven that you will be amazed, or so my dead father tells me from time to time.
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@jaybate-1.0 my grandma would be turning over in her grave knowing I canned salsa. I actually gave 2 jars away this week.
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Sleep well then. Two more next week and you will approach the modern equivalent of sainthood.
