Best Passer... EVER



  • BShark said:

    BeddieKU23 said:

    @wissox

    In General, I’ve seen the KU fanbase on both ends of the spectrum regarding Charlie.

    You have those that think he’ll start the season because of his experience both at Cal and his 1 year with the KU program. He has seniority over Devon, something that we’ve seen play out in his favor in the past.

    I’ve seen those who think he won’t amount to much here based on anything from his size, his HS ranking, his shooting metrics at Cal etc.

    In his favor at the minimum, Self took him into the program without hesitation. Everything we’ve heard about his character and work ethic has been A++. The Lawson’s might be here only a year but Charlie most likely ends his career a Hawk 3 years from now. Will be exciting to watch his development here

    I’m actually worried Moore ends up transferring again. Might be completely unfounded though. Can’t wait for the season to get here and see how Self goes with minutes.

    I have that worry as well with how the rules are for grad-transfers. I hope he sticks it out as I think he’ll make a big impact on this team as a Jr & Sr. Have stated that many times



  • BShark said:

    I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.

    I get the scoring guard comparison but it stops there. Frank has developed into a legitimate PG now, his play for the Kings already in the pre-season shows that



  • BeddieKU23 said:

    BShark said:

    I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.

    I get the scoring guard comparison but it stops there. Frank has developed into a legitimate PG now, his play for the Kings already in the pre-season shows that

    I think Moore could grow into a good player for sure but their games are a lot different.

    I do hope he toughs it out too though. I think he’s much closer to Andrew White than Cunliffe, Whitman, Maxwell.*

    *This is just from a good at basketball stand point and not player type of course.



  • Charlie was thrust into a tough situation at Cal, where 4 starters were hurt from the git-go, and he was relied on for the bulk of the scoring on a P-5 team as a freshman for a good portion of the season. I think with a much better supporting cast, with less pg responsibilities, he will be a great offensive weapon off the bench. The shothog moniker is a bit unfair in lieu of the circumstances at Cal. After watching Dotson, i just don’t see how they could start Charlie over him, even in the beginning. And that’s not a knock on Charlie- I just think Dotson is way more advanced than I had originally speculated.



  • BShark said:

    BeddieKU23 said:

    BShark said:

    I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.

    I get the scoring guard comparison but it stops there. Frank has developed into a legitimate PG now, his play for the Kings already in the pre-season shows that

    I think Moore could grow into a good player for sure but their games are a lot different.

    I do hope he toughs it out too though. I think he’s much closer to Andrew White than Cunliffe, Whitman, Maxwell.*

    *This is just from a good at basketball stand point and not player type of course.

    Agree, Charlie is a good basketball player. It was evident at Cal he was good enough to play almost anywhere despite his size. He has skill and I think his ability to score, make perimeter shots has a role on this team this season. At Cal he was fearless getting into the lane and either taking the shot or setting up teammates despite his size (a Frank comp in a way). We’ve seen some footage of him at KU setting up the bigs already which is the start of the transition I wanted to see out of him.

    I highly suggest anyone who’s high on Charlie to find some actual game footage of him at Cal. He’s not a traditional PG, Self has pointed this out for anyone who will listen. It’s a role I do think he can develop into as we’ve seen Frank & Devonte do recently. Be patient.



  • Several KU players interviewed over the Summer indicated Moore is the best 3 point shooter in the team, the area where KU is not loaded like previous years. He might be the right player for situations when a 3 point shooter is needed.



  • @KUSTEVE

    Good stuff. Agree



  • @JayHawkFanToo

    It also looks like KJ has improved his perimeter shooting as well. His shot looked smooth and natural in the Late Night scrimmage. He could be another pleasant surprise there.



  • BShark said:

    I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.

    Mason was really fast, stronger, had a better handle (which has gotten ever better if you’ve watched him lately), and was a better passer (which has also improved lately: 26-3 assist to turnover ratio in the preseason). He was also one of the best finishers at the rim I’ve ever seen at Kansas, and I see none of that in Moore. Not trying to kill Charlie here, but Frank was a NPOY and if life was fair, would start for the Kings this season. It’s not really a fair comparison for Moore.



  • @JayHawkFanToo I am remaining hopeful that we can get enough from Charlie, Vick and KJ.



  • HawkChamp said:

    @JayHawkFanToo I am remaining hopeful that we can get enough from Charlie, Vick and KJ.

    Grimes & Dedric as well. Those 5 should make up the bulk of the volume and makes for this team. Devon & Marcus will have their share of attempts as well but its a wait and see how much they have improved in that area



  • @HawkChamp

    Me too. We are going from teams with good 3 point shooters to a question mark and the only apparent weakness for the team. Success from the 3 makes the team unstoppable.



  • JayHawkFanToo said:

    Several KU players interviewed over the Summer indicated Moore is the best 3 point shooter in the team, the area where KU is not loaded like previous years. He might be the right player for situations when a 3 point shooter is needed.

    I was thinking this as well. Then I thought about defense. I just don’t see big minutes in Charlie’s future unless he’s better at D than advertised.



  • @KUSTEVE

    Oh yah, Im super psyched about this! We may not have Frank and DG anymore but with Dedric, we have a guy that is, according to Self, the best passer KU has had since Miles. That’s sick! Devon, Charlie seem to be very capable of filling shoes there too. Can’t wait for the games!



  • @KUSTEVE Deeeeeeeep! I wonder if Self will extend his bench to 9-10 guys late into the season. Kinda seems like he’ll have to with all those guys.



  • History indicates about 8 guys will separate themselves and Self will favor playing those guys especially in big/tight games.





  • BShark said:

    History indicates about 8 guys will separate themselves and Self will favor playing those guys especially in big/tight games.

    That would be disappointing given the depth.

    If the Starting Lineup is say - Dotson, Grimes, Vick, Dedric, Doke.

    Who’s the next 3? An eligible Silvio (6), KJ, (7), Marcus (8).

    I know sustaining 12 guys playing every game is not happening. But I think Self is going to have to find a way to play at least 9, 10.



  • @BeddieKU23 I’d love to see Self become more aggressive defensively and play a full 11 man rotation, but he is so damn stubborn. I expect to see 11 guys until B12 play. At that point, hopefully we are playing so well that he can’t sit anyone.

    I just don’t know where you sit guys. Usually it is easy to see the 8. Or hell, really the top 7. But not this year. We have a top 25 team sitting on the bench.

    Truth be told, I expect to see Big Dave get almost no run come conference play. Unless Mitch becomes a great trail 3 point shooter and lob passer, he won’t play. So that puts us at 9 pretty quickly. I think KJ might end up eating any minutes at the 4 not picked up by Doke, Dedric and DeSousa.



  • Depth ALWAYS works itself out. There will be 2 or 3 guys that either: 1. are careless with the ball and make stupid turnovers 2. get blown by on defense or miss box outs 3. take bad shots. This will mean a short leash and a seat next to coach Self. I dont care how “deep” we seem to be, there always seem to be short leash guys with Coach Self.



  • Silvio ends up sitting because of eligibility. Agbaji and Mitch don’t play. Very clean 9 imo.



  • BShark said:

    Silvio ends up sitting because of eligibility. Agbaji and Mitch don’t play. Very clean 9 imo.

    Could happen. Mitch would play if Silvio is out though. I can’t imagine Self only roles with 3 bigs but that’s where KJ’s versatility comes into play.



  • Mitch is going to play. He is just one of those guys that does everything right and Self can trust. I have been pretty hard on Mitch, but he is gonna play.



  • @Woodrow

    He bulked up to 225 which helps him. But if Silvio actually can play there’s probably only end of half minutes for him.



  • @BigBad The short leash will be acute this year. He has the depth to not have to put up with poor play at all this year.



  • Woodrow said:

    Mitch is going to play. He is just one of those guys that does everything right and Self can trust. I have been pretty hard on Mitch, but he is gonna play.

    But, he barely played towards the end of last year except for the B12 tournament when Doke was out. And KU adds multiple quality post players. I’ll believe it when I see it. If Silvio is out, that helps Mitch greatly of course.



  • Charlie is a good player. Going to be a canned offense kind of guy if we’re on a brutal offensive stretch.

    The rotation is going to be Dotson, Garrett, Grimes, K.J., Vick, Dedric, Doke, Silvio, and probably Mitch. Could see Dave against select opponents though.



  • I just want to remind you all that if Coach Self thinks all 12 guys can play this season and contribute then that’s what will happen. Bill has a blue print for how to play 12 guys and how that works right now. He did it this summer with USA Bball. Don’t count on it to happen but don’t be surprised if it does. This KU team is loaded! And, Self has already said very good things about Ochai and David and Charlie.



  • The thing about those team USA games is the USA team was a massive favorite in each game. Self is going to have ride or die guys, he always does.



  • In big games, the rotation will trim because in those games D. Lawson is playing 30 minutes, Grimes is playing 30 minutes, K. Lawson and Vick probably get 25 each. That’s 110 minutes right there. There just won’t be a lot of other minutes to go around because the “Big 4” will eat up so many minutes between them. That will cost someone in the Garrett/Dotson/Moore/McCormack group their minutes in big games (figuring that if Silvio is eligible he will play, and Doke will get minutes no matter what). There’s just no way around cutting someone’s minutes in that group, probably two of those guys.



  • @justanotherfan

    True. Some of the playing time will also depend on who the opponent is and what the match ups are. A team with no size inside will see a lot of Doke, Silvio and even Big Dave, but a team with size might see more of Mitch who is capable of stepping outside and hitting the 3. Same thing with the back court. a team with lack of back court size will see more of Moore, particularly if a 3 point shooter is needed but a team with tall guards will see more of Garret.

    Nice to have all these option that just were not available the past few seasons.



  • JayHawkFanToo said:

    @justanotherfan

    True. Some of the playing time will also depend on who the opponent is and what the match ups are. A team with no size inside will see a lot of Doke, Silvio and even Big Dave, but a team with size might see more of Mitch who is capable of stepping outside and hitting the 3. Same thing with the back court. a team with lack of back court size will see more of Moore, particularly if a 3 point shooter is needed but a team with tall guards will see more of Garret.

    Nice to have all these option that just were not available the past few seasons.

    Yeah, it’s fun to even be able to have these rotation and minutes discussions. I still don’t think Mitch sees the floor if Silvio is eligible but we will find out soon enough.



  • I have yet to see Mitch prove he can hit a 3 in a real game against D1 opponents.



  • Kcmatt7 said:

    I have yet to see Mitch prove he can hit a 3 in a real game against D1 opponents.

    He hit one against TCU and A&M last yea… POINT TAKEN.



  • Kcmatt7 said:

    I have yet to see Mitch prove he can hit a 3 in a real game against D1 opponents.

    Nice progress. I believe he hit 60%+ in one of the Summer games.

    0_1539371962883_upload-5b6487f6-83b3-4543-aae7-c64d17dcc320



  • Mitch was a disaster his FR year offensively, admittedly with very few opportunities. He didn’t generally kill the team last year, but he also wasn’t great. Self has a ton of options and I just can’t see Mitch getting much tick.



  • @JayHawkFanToo I would love to see Mitch prove me wrong. But the more I think about it, unless he able to take 2-3 a game and is connecting on them near 40%, he should probably not be playing. It would make a lot of sense to me if he did redshirt this season. He might as well get a free masters degree.



  • @BShark

    His overall number are very good particularly blocks.

    0_1539373063787_upload-bf51a25c-1be8-48f5-89c3-f31cbac9e463

    Only 6 less blocks than Doke playing considerably less minutes and his FT% is pretty good as well.

    0_1539373288296_upload-c5e4bc50-13a6-4d28-8be3-d64b9fd2dc83



  • @JayHawkFanToo Look at his rebound numbers though. And he was the only big in the game usually… With the way this offense is already going to struggle, I just think his rebounding is quite the liability. Again, unless he can shoot the ball well enough to help space the floor for everyone else.



  • @JayHawkFanToo I said disaster offensively. His defense has definitely been adequate. Doke is actually a fairly bad shot blocker and rebounder for his size. Though Udoka’s size in general deters shots in the paint. Where Doke is much better, despite being limited with no jumper is offensively. You get Doke the ball near the rim, and it’s getting dunked.

    Edit: @Kcmatt7 Great point on the lack of rebounding as well. KU got dumpstered last year on the boards in general which was mainly a product of only playing one big and having two shorter guards (Frank was a warrior and an anomaly the year before that) but Mitch didn’t help. His TRB% was 12.4, which is quite bad. Rebounding would absolutely suffer with Mitch in the game instead of any other player KU would realistically play at the 4 this season (Dedric, KJ, Silvio).



  • @Kcmatt7 @BShark

    Keep in mind that the last 2 seasons Mitch was playing as an undersized 5 matching up against much bigger opponents. He has now bulked up quite a bit and will be playing a more fitting 4 or even 3 so he will not have the size disadvantage he had before.



  • JayHawkFanToo said:

    @Kcmatt7 @BShark

    Keep in mind that the last 2 seasons Mitch was playing as an undersized 5 matching up against much bigger opponents. He has now bulked up quite a bit and will be playing a more fitting 4 or even 3 so he will not have the size disadvantage he had before.

    His skill set is that of a 5. Which I think he knows, given how much he did bulk up.



  • @JayHawkFanToo But he should have been pulling in more boards if he was the only big. If anything his per 40 should be inflated because he was the only big in the game. That is a REALLY bad rebounding number. I’m happy to see him all bulked up. I just think he is probably the worst rebounder out of the 6 people looking for PT at the two post spots.

    I do think he brings a great energy and makes some statement plays from time to time. But he really needs to be a well rounded player on both ends of the floor to make up for his lack of size and athleticism.



  • Mitch is the player Bill Self uses to make examples out of guys this season. Guys not hustling, Mitch goes in. Don’t rotate correctly, Mitch goes in. But that’s really like 5 mpg. Maybe 10 if that group gets on a good run.



  • @Kcmatt7

    Not when he is matched and competing for rebounds against much bigger players. This season he will be matched up against comparable sized players so I expect his numbers to go up.

    We will find out pretty soon. :smile:



  • Mitch as a 10-15 mpg energy guy isn’t a bad option. In lineups with another big man, Mitch should be okay. When he has to be the only big, that’s where he could run into matchup trouble. With Doke, Silvio and Big Dave all on the squad, Mitch will never be the lone big man on the floor, so he could be more productive this year than he has ever been, albeit in less minutes per game.



  • @justanotherfan

    Agreed. This is how I see it.



  • @JayHawkFanToo Doubtful Self lets him play the three. We have too many guards.

    He is noticeably bigger though! Might we see more “Mitch Slap” moments this year?



  • @BShark I believe Silvio plays. Although Im not 100% certain about that. Probly in the high 80s low 90s. lol



  • @BeddieKU23 100% will have to find a way to extend his bench out to 10 - 12.


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