It may be Fool's Gold, Coach, but it's awfully pretty
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Let me inject this into the discussion: What if the 19-22yr old kids in a particular loss (UNI, VCU, Mich, OkieSt, etc) simply did NOT successfully execute the change-in-tactics or gameplan adjustment that Self actually did tell them to do? Your response to this hypothetical question depends on your own philosophy: one can say ‘ok, the players didn’t do what play the coach called for, so we don’t know for a fact that Self failed to make a coaching adjustment’…OR…you could say ‘well, he’s the coach–they didn’t get whatever adjustment implemented, so its coach’s fault, buck stops there!’. Your choice. I know I see NFL pro-level teams not able to execute what may have been a perfect coach-called adjustment or playcall, right? Perfect analogy of what Im trying to say.
I don’t think Self is infallible, just as I don’t think Mike Krzyzewski is infallible. Heck, Self outright admitted it was his coaching error that cost the 08Champs the game vs KState in Manhattan that year (trying to double team Beasley, which the 08 guys were dutifully flying around trying to do, but got beat by then-unknown 3shooters named Clemente + Pullen shooting open looks in their own gym). Self made the adjustment, and the return game at AFH was a purple massacre. Self isn’t always right. But I’d bet the farm (& the Ferrari) on what he truly believes in private. But I’d strongly advise taking his public, to-media comments with a grain of salt. He has proven to be too crafty to take that stuff literally! Notice how the OkieState “cowboy” mascot has the cockeyed grin…well, y’all got one of those fellas right there in Lawrence in that office that used to be Roy’s…
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One more big-pix perspective angle: Every college basketball game there are 2 highly motivated coaches scheming and plotting against their opponent after having seen the scout film and reports. Once the game ends there’s a loser and a winner. The losing players either didn’t execute their coach’s gameplan (seldom are those gameplans actually wrong, isn’t that correct???), or there is the chance that the gameplan was just flat wrong. But that is a miniscule minority of gameplans, as such fundamentally wrong coaches wouldn’t last long, right?
If you are a TxTech alum, who would you blame for the TxTech loss to KU? Tubby Smith, a guy who’s built 4 winning programs and has a ring, or his very, very young squad that is still learning (uh, kinda like Billy Self’s team is, but then y’all knew that…) how to reliably execute. Heck TxTech is still learning how to shoot the ball. What in-game adjustments did Tubby Smith make or not-make that cost his kids the game. Why did they melt down in the 2nd half? They got length and athleticism. And didn’t Odiase actually outplay that Cliff Alexander MickeyD-from-Chicago? (yes he did). So who do you blame for the TxTech loss if you are a TxTech alum/fan? Come on, lets drive this home. Gotta blame somebody, right?
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@icthawkfan316 You’re right. Not enough comments about the game in general. I saw Greene’s lallygagging on defense and sure enough…he came out. It was pretty blatant lazy defense. I don’t understand why he would do that even for one play. We need him in there because he is an unbelievable weapon. Selden has shot the ball well enough of late that his 3 pt %, well as his FT % are now decent…unlike earlier in the season. I thought Cliff played well other than the first couple of trips…but Oidase did outplay him. I think Cliff will continue to improve. We finally got some decent seals inside in the 2nd half and got some easy baskets. One bad half, one good half…never heard that one before.
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Self is fine. I think he has a fair balance of inside/out play. I watched several passes inside against TT. They looked a lot like the Bill Self KU inside game that we’re used to. I believe we are all used to Withey, the twins, Robinson, and Embiid playing inside. They made that piece of the game look really easy. So much, the outside shooting of Reed, EJ, Rel, BMac’s shooting paled a bit. Although Releford and BMac held their own. I don’t think Wigs ever got on track quite like Greene and Selden. He relied more on attacking the rim and was able to hit the long ball, but again, he had a lot of inside help. Wigs was more hesitant to pull the trigger and tended to forced a lot inside, when he should’ve pulled up for short jumpers. He was a bit intimidated at times when he found himself defended at the rim, by missing many bunnies. Ellis is doing a lot of this too.
Last night was what we need for the rest of the season. If they can balance the inside game with the outside game, we’ll be fine. I think Self is simply saying not to rely on outside shooting. He wants to supplement the long ball with just enough deep, inside pins to keep teams honest. They moved the ball inside/out and outside in fairly well. TT defended inside fairly well too.
I don’t think Self is choking Greene or anyone else. He’s said many times that Greene needs to take more and in fact, he even said they need to create some plays that will open his shooting frequency. I don’t know where you think Self is preventing this team from shooting 3s. It’s clear he’s way more open to 3s then any other team.
He recognizes the teams potential. He knows they can go inside and then pull up outside. We’re not as long either, so he realizes a few more 3s are needed to pull defenses out. Remember, in the past, teams would pack it in and allow KU to shoot 3s because they weren’t quite as accurate. They are fine and peaking about right leading into the back half of the season. They should be ready for B12 tourney and beyond.
The D is coming along really well. They need to keep up the pressure and intensity on the ball to create those much needed TOs and transition points too.
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@HighEliteMajor I know that you and I both love and live and die Jayhawks. I, like Keith Langford, was upset when the Run and Gun of Roy left us, to be taken over by a defensive minded coach. After 12 years I shared the joy of a National Championship, and the heartbreak of every loss. Your passion seems to be much greater than mine. You are brilliant in your anger. I don’t understand the blame and harsh words though. I’ve been wrong in many of my assessments of players. I once stated that Selden was the leader of this team, I was wrong. I thought Svi’s early showing would have him be a star this season. I defended Jamari just yesterday over Cliff. I just wanted to say that I don’t believe Coaches statement was evil in regards to “Fools Gold.” I did think we must try to set up the outside shots by at least not being one dimensional. We did play inside successfully in the second half and hit six straight threes. You were championing Brannen last year long before anyone else. The announcer last night asked Coach if Brannen was the best shooter he has ever coached. Self said he was and the only other that was nearly comparable was Brandon Rush. But the bile that this defensive coach has had to swallow this year because of poor defense could kill him. Let me illustrate a few thoughts:
We can play inside the three point line, but not a back to the basket Withey’s or Robinson style
He missed the dunk but got fouled.
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Here is Brannen letting Lucas clear for Ellis to come to the middle! Ellis stops and hits the easytwo.
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Here is coach always coaching and caring. If he screams, he cares. People on the bench don’t get yelled at. After the coaching there is a pat on the back and a smile.
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He is sent back onto the court and then this happens…
That is when Simon brought up the deficiencies on defense. Coach is doing everything he can. I’m also sorry to have been so sarcastic.
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@KUinLA Please don’t allow my simplifications to grow too complex or befuddling. My wife declares that she views tongue in cheek as among my most irritating qualities. Sometimes I do seem to squeeze a bit too much juice from thinskinned lemons.
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This is one inside play that involved a beautiful shot fake and pass from Devonte and a super seal by Perry.
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Great illustrations, wrwlumpy. Greene getting burned was seared into my brain, but I’d forgotten it was right after the sideline meeting with the coach. LOL.
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@ralster The error in your analogy here is that you don’t take into account the relative skill levels of the players on each team. At least 5 of Kansas’ top rotation players are going to be drafted into the NBA, whenever they decide to declare. They may not make the roster, but Cliff, Perry, Wayne, Kelly and Brannen are all going to be drafted. They are of that skill level. How many of TT’s players are going to be drafted? Probably none.
This is a game you are expected to win easily. If you beat a vastly more talented team, it’s a great coaching victory. And if you don’t dispatch a vastly less talented team, where does the blame lie? Well, on this chat board, if your name is Calipari, it’s clear evidence that you’re a terrible coach. If you’re Bill Self, the blame formerly rested squarely on the players shoulders. Not so much anymore.
Repeated tournament upsets have people questioning the coach’s methods. Maybe Bill’s just a victim of his own success, but that’s the source of the anxiety and unease (even in a win) on this board. Either we’re under-peforming in the tournament (year after year) or we’re over-rated.
If you go into the tournament as an overall #1 or 2 seed, anything less than a Final Four is a disappointment. If you go in as a 2 seed or higher, anything less than an Elite Eight is a disappointment, and an exit in the first weekend is a disaster. How many times have we seen our draft laden teams get upset by nobodies? Nobodies who didn’t win another game in the tournament. It’s that history that has posters angst-ing over this team’s prospects. We seen it all before.
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@KUinLA The tournament upsets are certainly the biggest issue for most fans including myself. Our standards and our expectations are just incredibly high. We expect a Final 4 every year and if we go out in the Elite 8 even that is a “how did this happen?” situation. The same expectations are an issue at UNC, Duke, Cuse, UK, et cetera.
The early round upsets do seem to cloud our vision a bit though. Let’s just pretend we make it to the Elite 8 or beyond this year. If that is the case Bill will have gone to the Elite 8 6 times in 12 years. 50% of his years we will be in a one game playoff to get to the Final 4. Assuming that happens I consider that a pretty good percentage. If it doesn’t and we lose to a team I have never heard of in the first weekend? Well, I drink heavily and cuss about our awful gameplan and once I am over it I will make bold claims like “next year we may not lose a game”.
Our post seasons may not live up to our expectations (certainly not mine) but things could be worse. This year is a great example of our consistency under both Bill and Roy. We just keep being in the discussion for 1 and 2 seeds. Florida, UCONN, Cuse, MSU, Michigan…these teams probably don’t even make the NCAA Tournament this year.
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@lincase good post! Good analogies. I dont think anyone will disagree with your perspective on this issue here!! Let them run!
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@RockChalkinTexas Coach Self is one of the greats. That much is certain. But, this team is the best 3 point shooting team he has ever had. He has 6 guys that are perfectly capable of shooting greater than 40% from trey. SIX! Sure, there will be a game when 4 of his gunners arent shooting it well at all. But, all six!? No. The law of averages says other wise to me. Just let the other 2 fire away.
But, then again, if we dont have any low post presence, a team full of L&A’s will just crowd the arc and prevent easy shots. Its a conundrum of sorts.
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@JayHawkFanToo What I think is most irritating with you is the shallowness of your responses, and the inaccuracies of your attempts to challenge statements here. You say right out of the box – “There is no question that KU is playing from the outside in and that the inside game is not doing well …”
KU is playing from the outside-in? You do see the high-low we played 100% of the time the past two games, right? You do see the constant focus on feeding the post, right? You did see Selden say right after the last game the following - “we like to play inside-out, that’s how we play.” Kansas is running the same offense they always have. They are taking appx. the same rate of three point shots. I don’t even know what to say this.
It’s not that you disagree. It’s how you try to disagree. It’s that you disagree and you make red herring statements like “Our 3 point shooters have their limitations …”, as if that means something.
And you don’t magically improve the inside game with 7 games left. Please explain to me how this changes now? Game to game, match ups might help. But beyond that, this is the offensive team we have. But keep trying to “improve” as you say? It’s not about that. It’s about scheming to your strength (again, I think you misunderstand that. It doesn’t mean shoot all threes, or 40% of your shots as threes. Or a set number. It is attacking teams trying to get those looks, and then capitalizing when either they don’t stop it, or they try to stop it. You might scheme to get threes and not even shoot one for quite a while in a game. I mentioned back cutting when team pressure out. Just one of many options. I have said many, many times that I’ll take the reliable scoring at the rim any day of the week.).
This is a perfect example of the shallowness of your replies. You say, “KU is most definitely scheming to shoot the three and it has more success with some teams than others depending on how well they scheme to stop our outside game.”
Of course, you never say how. You never point to a change in their scheme. You never, ever come here with a review of the game to demonstrate that (or anything else). Nothing.
You attempt to prove the point that Self is supposedly scheming to get threes with the following, “Why do you think Coach Self is on the sidelines, red in the face screaming at players?..do you think he is telling them…good job, you are doing exactly what we planned?”
That is simply useless.
Brannen Greene said just last week that he is free to shoot within the flow of the offense – again, within the flow of the offense.
There is nothing … zero … that has changed in their offense to get more three point looks. From a set-play standpoint, I noted a specific play against Utah where they got Greene a three point shot. It was very obvious. V-cut to and from the baseline with a screen. Has anyone seen that since?
You said, “You make it sound that if players are give(n) a set play they will hit the 3 every time? No, they will not.”
I’m sorry, I have no idea what planet you live on. It isn’t a basketball planet. And it isn’t a reading comprehension planet. Someone please enlighten me, have I ever made it sound as if we’ll hit “every” three? Or even 50%? I’ve talked plainly about 40%.
You said, referring to yourself, "Again, I know a little about basketball but not enough to be even dangerous, let alone good at it … "
With that, I conclude.
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For those that think teams can just stop your three point shooting if you’re trying to shoot them, do this – think about who was the best three point shooters in recent memory? Guys you don’t want to have the ball. And guys, like Greene, who are deadly from the three point line as well.
One might be JJ Reddick, right? In his four years at Duke, Reddick shot 238, 258, 300, and 330 three pointers in the years he played. Do you think teams tried to stop that dude from shooting? I would think so. And he shot over 40% for his career. So don’t tell me that Greene won’t get good looks if teams try to stop him – if we’re scheming/working to get him looks. And do you think, possibly, that coach K schemed to get Reddick open looks? Maybe? Greene shot only three, three pointers the other night. Best shooter in the country.
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@HighEliteMajor So are you saying that because Reddick shot 238, 258, 300, and 330 three pointers in his four years at Duke and shot at a better than 40% clip that means no team was ever successful at scheming to stop him (or at least slow him down)? Because that is what you’re saying by throwing out those stats and thinking they disprove that teams were capable of stopping and/or slowing down three point shooting.
During his senior season, in which he put up the most 3-point attempts during his career, Wake Forest appears to have had particular success in defending Redick. In the first meeting, Redick was 1-3 from behind the arc while playing 30 minutes (a Duke win). In the second meeting, he was 0-4 while playing 25 minutes (a Duke loss). There are other examples of him either having low attempts in a game that season (3 in 36 minutes against Colorado St.) or him shooting poorly (1-11 in a loss to KU in that year’s NCAA tournament), so it is possible for even the greatest shooters to be defended well, either into low attempts or low success.
Also, Reddick was starter for most (if not all) of his tenure at Duke. He averaged 30.7, 31.1, 37.3, and 37.1 mpg. Greene is averaging 14.7 mpg this season. Scheme or not, Greene is not going to average as many looks per night as Redick did simply because of reduced time on the court. So pointing out that he only shot three 3-pointers in a game is misleading. You have to adjust for playing time. Redick averaged 7.0 3-point attempts his sophomore year while playing 31.1 mpg. Greene shot only three, three pointers the other night, while playing 14 minutes. Adjust that to 31.1 minutes, and the total would be 6.7 attempts. Pretty close to the 7 Redick averaged.
So you can argue for more minutes, and I’d entertain that argument. But three 3-pointers in 14 minutes isn’t a stymied pace.
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Add to that the several instances last game and vs. OSU where specific plays were drawn up to get open threes. The elevator screen play has been seen several times. We ended the first half with a drive and flare screen for Wayne. Our guards have been driving to kick out instead of dish. There have been more aggressive skip passes against zone to get open looks on the perimeter.
The offense is definitely perimeter oriented and vs. OSU it clearly wasn’t enough.
Part of outside-in is IN. Against Tech we needed to work on executing more IN because OUTSIDE was killing them! The win was sealed so we didn’t need to focus on our strengths as much as we did. That is why Self said we shot too many threes and that it is “fools gold.”
He is trying to prevent this extremely talented shooting team from relying on the three. You think Brennan Greene is going to shoot worse because his coach doesn’t value him? He is in the game to shoot and score. When he is in we work to get him looks. Actions speak louder than words. Greene’s psyche is fine.
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@benshawks08 I disagree. A huge part of loss was due to turnovers, not a flaw in the outside in offensive strategy.
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@icthawkfan316 I grant you pretty much everything you have said. Good shooters certainly can be guarded well. I’m not painting with an all encompassing brush. I just think that Reddick is an interesting case study.
Over the course a year, one of the best dual threat guys – 3 pt/FT % – got off over 1,100 attempts.
No doubt, you can work to take one guy out of a game. You could play the “extra help” game where the nearest off defender prioritizes help over his own man. But over the course of a season, it just won’t happen that way.
Further, as is obvious, when you really take a guy away, the Red Sea parts elsewhere. Particularly with more talented teams.
You will also have games when there is truly a lockdown, 1 on 1 defender that wreaks havoc – I think of a long Brandon Rush type guarding a Reddick.
But over the course of a season, one guy won’t be taken away.
I really like the shots per minute comparison there … the “per minute” thing is real important in my thinking on stats.
**Also, I am curious about your reference to Reddick losing to KU his senior season in the tourney. We got bounced in 05-06 vs. Bradley. What were you referring to?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I am not referring to Embiid going pro. I am referring to recruiting post players that can execute Self’s inside out strategy.
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@DinarHawk my point was he thought Embiid would be here longer so he didn’t recruit a footer for his offense.
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@DinarHawk Sorry if that was misleading. I was not trying to say Outside in was wrong or flawed. I was just saying we got a significant amount of looks from three especially when you consider how much we turned it over. Obviously turn overs were a major problem in the second half. I’m just trying to say that we need to be able to score inside to provide some balance. Self has shown he is willing to “free the three” but not to the detriment of balance.
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@HighEliteMajor Wasn’t his senior year. It was his freshman year, '02-'03. My bad
